Palmitoylethanolamide - a novel OPIOID tolerance reducer

[instantKARMA]

Do you cycle those supplements?

That's a good regimen! Perhaps, it might be worth it to add a good Turmeric extract to it for further benefit.

Also, BallzDeep9's recommendation about the Magnesium L-Threonate (Magtein) is worth checking out as a superior Magnesium salt. It combines in itself the benefits of both Magnesium and L-Theanine, and both are quite useful for general health and tolerance reduction. Its absorption rates are also quite good. I have a big stash of the Magnesium Glycinate, but once I am out, I will definitely check out that supplement and perhaps begin using it instead of my current Magnesium salt.

I dose the daytime Palmitoylethanolamide tablet, 1/8-1/4 tsp Agmatine, L-Theanine and 800 mg of
Magnesium Citrate as soon as I get up in the morning. At 3:00 P.M. I take another dose of Agmatine
and another 800 mg of Magnesium Citrate. At bedtime I dose the nighttime tablet of Palmitoylethanolamide
and another dose of L-Theanine! I injured my back 25 years ago and since that time I've had chronic
constipation, thus the 800 mg of Magnesium twice per day!

I'm definitely going to look into the Magnesium L-Threonate (Magtein) as mentioned by Mr. BallzzzZ! My
Magnesium Citrate stash is also considerable so it will take me a while to work my way through that. In
the meantime, I'll likely just go ahead with an order of the Magnesium L-Threonate anyway!

I'll likely take your advice and add Turmeric back into the mix. I had discontinued that months ago
because I was taking an anti-inflammatory at the time and I didn't want to cause any kidney issues.
The only items I'm now taking for pain or those mentioned above and my daily Kratom regimen!

[Theanine]

Good personal reports, guys, keep it up. Anyone reading this thread will benefit by them. If anyone else would like to offer their own input or to pose some questions, please do so. In discussion, we arrive closer to the truth!

[IndelibleDotInk]

Any updates? Still taking it?

I just took one now in prep for tomorrow evening's dose, but I'm still trying to nail down the sweet spot dose, hope it helps.

[Babel-17]

Thank you all for the useful information in this thread. Palmitoylethanolamide is probably part of why I could easily lower my serving sizes a bit. I figure on counting heavily on it down the road during further mini tolerance breaks.

[IndelibleDotInk]

Is anyone still trying PEA?

Theanine??

[Feeltheburna13]

I still use it maybe once a month. To me it’s not something I can use daily or even a few times a week. It seems like it’s still pretty effective when I take it once or twice a month, but I have had times of taking it frequently and it seemed liked it lost its efficacy. Hope that helps.

[hc7]

I just remembered this post, and im thinking its time I put this to the test.

Im strongly considering quitting Kratom, partly as an experiment, and partly because I think its something I should do for a while. Ive been consistently taking Kratom for maybe a year and a half again 15-25 grams per day for most of those days, not a crazy "habit". One of the major reasons I started to take it again was because of a surgery and stress, and I technically dont NEED it anymore. Ive also noticed that in that time ive slowly had my hair thin, and ive always had a thick head of hair with absolutely zero issues before this (and mind you, im a bodybuilder whose used many strong androgenic drugs in the past with absolutely zero impact on my hair, which is partly why I know Kratom has to be playing some type of role here) so I want to quit Kratom to see if theres an improvement and if the texture of my hair goes back to normal as well.

Anyway, this is the first supplement I thought of to help with any WDs (and im going to do a fairly quick taper as well) and im curious just how much will it help with WDs coming off kratom? Im going to take 300mg twice a day, is there anything else you could recommend to aid in my experiment of getting off kratom as smooth and painless as possible? Id be willing to post an in depth update of using the PEA (and any other supps you think will help) to aid in getting off/tolerance break just so people have a good reference of what to expect if they want to do the same.

[Theanine]

I still use it maybe once a month. To me it’s not something I can use daily or even a few times a week. It seems like it’s still pretty effective when I take it once or twice a month, but I have had times of taking it frequently and it seemed liked it lost its efficacy. Hope that helps.

I second that notion, I only take it once per week now, it seems to be the perfect frequency for the purpose.

I just remembered this post, and im thinking its time I put this to the test.

Im strongly considering quitting Kratom, partly as an experiment, and partly because I think its something I should do for a while. Ive been consistently taking Kratom for maybe a year and a half again 15-25 grams per day for most of those days, not a crazy "habit". One of the major reasons I started to take it again was because of a surgery and stress, and I technically dont NEED it anymore. Ive also noticed that in that time ive slowly had my hair thin, and ive always had a thick head of hair with absolutely zero issues before this (and mind you, im a bodybuilder whose used many strong androgenic drugs in the past with absolutely zero impact on my hair, which is partly why I know Kratom has to be playing some type of role here) so I want to quit Kratom to see if theres an improvement and if the texture of my hair goes back to normal as well.

Anyway, this is the first supplement I thought of to help with any WDs (and im going to do a fairly quick taper as well) and im curious just how much will it help with WDs coming off kratom? Im going to take 300mg twice a day, is there anything else you could recommend to aid in my experiment of getting off kratom as smooth and painless as possible? Id be willing to post an in depth update of using the PEA (and any other supps you think will help) to aid in getting off/tolerance break just so people have a good reference of what to expect if they want to do the same.

I also feel as though Kratom contributes to the hair loss/thinning. I am not sure how or why, but it is likely androgenic hormone related (testosterone : estrogen ratios within the body).

I would DEFINITELY include the Cat's Claw extract, Turmeric extract, DLPA and Agmatine into the mix. They are a MUST for Kratom tapers and discontinuation. Here is the best source/price for it on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013OXCJI/

Best of luck and report back!

[hc7]

I still use it maybe once a month. To me it’s not something I can use daily or even a few times a week. It seems like it’s still pretty effective when I take it once or twice a month, but I have had times of taking it frequently and it seemed liked it lost its efficacy. Hope that helps.

I second that notion, I only take it once per week now, it seems to be the perfect frequency for the purpose.

I just remembered this post, and im thinking its time I put this to the test.

Im strongly considering quitting Kratom, partly as an experiment, and partly because I think its something I should do for a while. Ive been consistently taking Kratom for maybe a year and a half again 15-25 grams per day for most of those days, not a crazy "habit". One of the major reasons I started to take it again was because of a surgery and stress, and I technically dont NEED it anymore. Ive also noticed that in that time ive slowly had my hair thin, and ive always had a thick head of hair with absolutely zero issues before this (and mind you, im a bodybuilder whose used many strong androgenic drugs in the past with absolutely zero impact on my hair, which is partly why I know Kratom has to be playing some type of role here) so I want to quit Kratom to see if theres an improvement and if the texture of my hair goes back to normal as well.

Anyway, this is the first supplement I thought of to help with any WDs (and im going to do a fairly quick taper as well) and im curious just how much will it help with WDs coming off kratom? Im going to take 300mg twice a day, is there anything else you could recommend to aid in my experiment of getting off kratom as smooth and painless as possible? Id be willing to post an in depth update of using the PEA (and any other supps you think will help) to aid in getting off/tolerance break just so people have a good reference of what to expect if they want to do the same.

I also feel as though Kratom contributes to the hair loss/thinning. I am not sure how or why, but it is likely androgenic hormone related (testosterone : estrogen ratios within the body).

I would DEFINITELY include the Cat's Claw extract, Turmeric extract, DLPA and Agmatine into the mix. They are a MUST for Kratom tapers and discontinuation. Here is the best source/price for it on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013OXCJI/

Best of luck and report back!

Thanks, definitely will also pick up Cats Claw and DLPA since I dont have them. I think ill begin them all the last week of taper and into discontinuation, is it possible that taking all of these things can make WDs pretty much non existent after tapering down to 10-12 grams per day before discontinuation? Just trying to get a gauge of what to expect.

[Theanine]

Thanks, definitely will also pick up Cats Claw and DLPA since I dont have them. I think ill begin them all the last week of taper and into discontinuation, is it possible that taking all of these things can make WDs pretty much non existent after tapering down to 10-12 grams per day before discontinuation? Just trying to get a gauge of what to expect.

There should not be much of a WD, but I would recommend getting your Kratom dosing into single digits before jumping off it. Somewhere around 5 grams per day or less, in that case there would be no issues at all, especially with proper supplementation. I personally never actually experienced a WD from Kratom, not in a physical sense, I mostly just get depressed, which is my natural state of being. I think that it has a lot to do with my supplementation, especially the Cat's Claw extract. Without those supplements, I quickly burn out on Kratom anyways.

[INSENSE3]

Interesting older post. When I use this PEA, it’s to immediately stop any kratom benefits. It blocks kratom almost instantly. For times when I use more than I shoulda, for example. I’m definitely noticing the lack of kratom benefits right away.

I hate to have to read 250 posts on this topic. Y’all are using it for weaning?

I’ll keep jumping around the topic and see if I can figure out what y’all are finding it helpful for. I usually take it at night for lower tolerance the next morning. As opposed to mixing the PEA WITH kratom. Hmmm

[INSENSE3]

Another question on this dated thread..I can’t seem to find where the Magnesium L-theonate comes into the picture as possibly helpful. I found one mention of it, but it wasn’t clear as to why. Just a mention. I copied and pasted that to the search field up above here and the search said Magnesium L-theonate is not mentioned on the entire site, which is impossible. This is where I read about it in the first place. LOL

Does anyone have any updates or comments on the palmitoylethanolamide or Magnesium L-theonate use/benefits/lack of benefits?

Hope everyone is feeling well and safe!

I’ve been meaning to look this stuff up, but I’m hitting a wall with the final conclusions of those interested back in 2018/2019..if there are any conclusions from your various samplings.

Thanks so much!

Laurie

INSENSE3

[vesku88]

Is anyone still trying PEA?

Theanine??

Yes for 2 weeks now at 1200 mg per day. Not feeling any benefits at all yet.

[vesku88]

Interesting older post. When I use this PEA, it’s to immediately stop any kratom benefits. It blocks kratom almost instantly. For times when I use more than I shoulda, for example. I’m definitely noticing the lack of kratom benefits right away.

I hate to have to read 250 posts on this topic. Y’all are using it for weaning?

I’ll keep jumping around the topic and see if I can figure out what y’all are finding it helpful for. I usually take it at night for lower tolerance the next morning. As opposed to mixing the PEA WITH kratom. Hmmm

Wait what....PEA is not supposed to block your kratom...

[INSENSE3]

Hey vesku88! Thanks for the reply! I was thinking maybe I am the only person that gets the “kratom disabled” benefits. I have used it frequently for tolerance reduction by taking 1/4 tsp at bedtime. Next day, I have to be careful not too use much kratom - because it works for this purpose in my chemistry. Apparently I process it differently than EVERYONE else, crazy. Thanks for the input!

[Theanine]

Interesting older post. When I use this PEA, it’s to immediately stop any kratom benefits. It blocks kratom almost instantly. For times when I use more than I shoulda, for example. I’m definitely noticing the lack of kratom benefits right away.

I hate to have to read 250 posts on this topic. Y’all are using it for weaning?

I’ll keep jumping around the topic and see if I can figure out what y’all are finding it helpful for. I usually take it at night for lower tolerance the next morning. As opposed to mixing the PEA WITH kratom. Hmmm

Wait what....PEA is not supposed to block your kratom...

PEA would likely block some of Kratom's positive effects if they are taken concurrently. However, they are NOT meant to be taken together, but rather as far apart as possible. PEA lowers opioid/cannabinoid tolerance, this has been extensively discussed here, but it is not at all a potentiator of any opioids, including kratom. Furthermore, as has been mentioned, if taken close to your kratom dose, it would undermine it. I take mine about once a week, closer to midday, and by the next morning, I am almost completely reset, meaning that I get full benefit from my kratom whereas before, it was starting to wane. Also, when I took PEA daily, I stopped feeling kratom altogether because the PEA somehow blocked it. Within 24 hours upon discontinuation of daily PEA intake, my kratom started to work again, but much better than before the PEA blockade which daily intake creates. I suggest once or twice per week dosing pattern as it is more than sufficient to alleviate the ever forming opioid tolerance which kratom use creates. Cat's Claw extract is another MUST in our battle against the evil tolerance, every other day, after your last daily kratom dose. Caveat, Cat's Claw has some stimulating effects which must be mediated considering that for our purpose, it must be taken closer to the evening. Kratom on, children of pain...

[INSENSE3]

Thank you for the updated reply, THEANINE! I only skimmed the older posts. But your most recent post is right on point with regard to the PEA affects, when to supplement, and the Cats Claw is also precisely what I’ve learned with my “crash test dummy” self experiments in the last year or maybe a bit more. However, great updated recap. Thank you for taking the time to clarify!

Laurie
INSENSE3

[Back2K]

Interesting, i wonder if I can find palmiotoylethanolamide just by itself, if not then this is probably the best way to go. I just worry about putting things into my body im not too sure about, kratom intake bugs me after seeing GumbyKe1’s video about how they process the leaf, its pretty rudimentary how they make kratom. Hopefully KC and GGK farmers have a cleaner way to process their leaf, they are my favorite vendors

If that video bothers you, it was supposed to make you feel better lol. Those guys took much more care than probably 99% of other vendors. Check his post “behind the scenes of the kratom industry”

I myself have just decided to literally boil my kratom for a full 5 minute rolling boil.
As far as I can tell it does not affect the potency of the kratom.

[Back2K]

Interesting older post. When I use this PEA, it’s to immediately stop any kratom benefits. It blocks kratom almost instantly. For times when I use more than I shoulda, for example. I’m definitely noticing the lack of kratom benefits right away.

I hate to have to read 250 posts on this topic. Y’all are using it for weaning?

I’ll keep jumping around the topic and see if I can figure out what y’all are finding it helpful for. I usually take it at night for lower tolerance the next morning. As opposed to mixing the PEA WITH kratom. Hmmm

Wait what....PEA is not supposed to block your kratom...

PEA would likely block some of Kratom's positive effects if they are taken concurrently. However, they are NOT meant to be taken together, but rather as far apart as possible. PEA lowers opioid/cannabinoid tolerance, this has been extensively discussed here, but it is not at all a potentiator of any opioids, including kratom. Furthermore, as has been mentioned, if taken close to your kratom dose, it would undermine it. I take mine about once a week, closer to midday, and by the next morning, I am almost completely reset, meaning that I get full benefit from my kratom whereas before, it was starting to wane. Also, when I took PEA daily, I stopped feeling kratom altogether because the PEA somehow blocked it. Within 24 hours upon discontinuation of daily PEA intake, my kratom started to work again, but much better than before the PEA blockade which daily intake creates. I suggest once or twice per week dosing pattern as it is more than sufficient to alleviate the ever forming opioid tolerance which kratom use creates. Cat's Claw extract is another MUST in our battle against the evil tolerance, every other day, after your last daily kratom dose. Caveat, Cat's Claw has some stimulating effects which must be mediated considering that for our purpose, it must be taken closer to the evening. Kratom on, children of pain...

Im assuming these would both work to help me detox off suboxone and start feeling Kratom even better? Miruclously I actually still feel Kratom fairly decently, even while actively taking suboxone.
Im quite excited at the prospect of becoming a born again virgin, you guys are getting me dam excited over here.

[Laurie]

Hi Back2k,

It’s Laurie from INSENSE3,

I didn’t feel it appropriate to post this under the vendor username. But it’s still me, Laurie. Your enthusiasm is awesome and I would love to see you ditch the subs! FREEDOM.

But, I wanted to be sure this is said and understood:

I would put the brakes on that enthusiasm for a minute. Revisit the thread. Just because the palmitoylethanolamide (by itself!) does reverse tolerance, it’s not necessarily a pleasant, trouble free experience. My tolerance has been up for about 3 weeks due to excessive pain levels (related to how my brain works, which is affected by the pandemic trauma even though I’m perfectly healthy and fine).

So after I posted on this, I had some last night. A small dose goes a long way. 1/4 tsp according to the label. Within 15 minutes I was detoxing a bit, and shivering and freezing while it’s not terribly cold AT ALL. Getting rest was a challenge. I’d wake up after about 2 hours and then go back to sleep...but it was difficult to get out of bed (part of that is my age, part was the shivers from detoxing SOMEWHAT) and I have been able to only have 2 servings of kratom so far today to feel better. Out of discomfort but I’m still using product that is too strong. Less of it.

I just wanted to let you know that it’s not easy and you might be better off to wean down on the subs and then incorporate kratom once you’re down or like 2 of mg or grams or however subs are distributed in those strips. People begin the kratom when the subs are down to 2 in order to feel basically FINE while completing your getting off the subs.

Today has been emotionally exhausting (depression) as a side effect of having done that last night. Although I CAN AND MUST use less kratom today, but I have NOT experienced a full “restart” with all of the bells and whistles AT ALL. My tolerance is lower. Period. It’s easier to go straight to wobbles, NOT anything like a restart. For me.

The palmitoylethanolamide would be better for use as a tool for weaning off of kratom after you’ve completed your switch from subs, JUST MY OPINION.

I’m often told I’m wrong wrong wrong and wrong on this website, so I expect there will be more replies contradicting my personal experience. I just wanted to be clear that you are headed in the right direction but I just wanted to be sure to clarify that this is NOT a “get out of dependence free” opportunity and I have NOT done enough consistent use to possibly regain newbie joy.

High expectations can make the experience a disappointment. Medium expectations might better bring unexpected better response! Hope it does. Really cool to hear of ANYONE getting away from subs. You didn’t ask for clarification on this, and I don’t know everything. I hope to follow your journey to freedom very soon!

Laurie
INSENSE3

[Theanine]

I too was trapped by the subutex, but nearly two years ago, I had to end that nightmare. I've gotten to as low of a dose as I could, only a tiny speck as a dose, single subutex pill would last me literally a month or more, as crazy as that sounds. One would think that such an amount of any substance is negligible, it is not. Upon finally jumping off, the withdrawals which had ensued where beyond my every comprehension of suffering, they were horrific beyond any explanation and kept worsening for days! I think that I've hit the peak (plateau) somewhere around the fourth or fifth day, by the seventh day, the suffering was clearly waning. That is the day that I choose to start on my first ever kratom dose, I remember that it was a Green MD which I had judiciously gotten from eBay in preparation for the withdrawal nightmare to come. A single tea spoon, about 2,5 grams of that GMD, had completely alleviated any remnants of the withdrawals that I've been having and I was actually felling GOOD!?! I couldn't believe it, I was certain that there were some synthetic opioids mixed into my kratom, like tramadol or something. With time, I have understood it to simply be potent kratom. In any case, that is where my kratom love affair has begun, nearly two years ago, and it continues to this day. Now days, I could skip a day or two or three without much ill effect, but for about 6 months following my subushit discontinuation, I've had horrible legs cramps, depression and trouble sleeping, which I had initially attributed to kratom, considering them a side effect, but it was, in fact, the prolonged withdrawal syndrome from years of subutex use. I know that now because kratom gives me no ill effect at all, even with abuse, no matter how long I use it. If it weren't for this miracle plant, I'd be back on that horrible piece of chemical or something worse even. Is there something worse out there? Not that I know of, maybe methadone or another LONG acting opioid designed to ruin one's life. Anyways, this is an abridged version of my own kratom story....

[fusedflora]

I too was trapped by the subutex, but nearly two years ago, I had to end that nightmare. I've gotten to as low of a dose as I could, only a tiny speck as a dose, single subutex pill would last me literally a month or more, as crazy as that sounds. One would think that such an amount of any substance is negligible, it is not. Upon finally jumping off, the withdrawals which had ensued where beyond my every comprehension of suffering, they were horrific beyond any explanation and kept worsening for days! I think that I've hit the peak (plateau) somewhere around the fourth or fifth day, by the seventh day, the suffering was clearly waning. That is the day that I choose to start on my first ever kratom dose, I remember that it was a Green MD which I had judiciously gotten from eBay in preparation for the withdrawal nightmare to come. A single tea spoon, about 2,5 grams of that GMD, had completely alleviated any remnants of the withdrawals that I've been having and I was actually felling GOOD!?! I couldn't believe it, I was certain that there were some synthetic opioids mixed into my kratom, like tramadol or something. With time, I have understood it to simply be potent kratom. In any case, that is where my kratom love affair has begun, nearly two years ago, and it continues to this day. Now days, I could skip a day or two or three without much ill effect, but for about 6 months following my subushit discontinuation, I've had horrible legs cramps, depression and trouble sleeping, which I had initially attributed to kratom, considering them a side effect, but it was, in fact, the prolonged withdrawal syndrome from years of subutex use. I know that now because kratom gives me no ill effect at all, even with abuse, no matter how long I use it. If it weren't for this miracle plant, I'd be back on that horrible piece of chemical or something worse even. Is there something worse out there? Not that I know of, maybe methadone or another LONG acting opioid designed to ruin one's life. Anyways, this is an abridged version of my own kratom story....

welcome back, I know I speak for a lot of folks in saying we're glad to see you return.

[Theanine]

welcome back, I know I speak for a lot of folks in saying we're glad to see you return.

Thank you, sir! I was never really gone. More than anything, I was in the "lurk" mode but even though other priorities have taken hold, I am still a devout kratom warrior, always converting the unfortunate souls stuck in the pharmaceutical opioid hell. BTW, I still have some of your samples, even a year later, they remain quite potent, especially the string dried stuff.....

[vesku88]

Interesting older post. When I use this PEA, it’s to immediately stop any kratom benefits. It blocks kratom almost instantly. For times when I use more than I shoulda, for example. I’m definitely noticing the lack of kratom benefits right away.

I hate to have to read 250 posts on this topic. Y’all are using it for weaning?

I’ll keep jumping around the topic and see if I can figure out what y’all are finding it helpful for. I usually take it at night for lower tolerance the next morning. As opposed to mixing the PEA WITH kratom. Hmmm

Wait what....PEA is not supposed to block your kratom...

PEA would likely block some of Kratom's positive effects if they are taken concurrently. However, they are NOT meant to be taken together, but rather as far apart as possible. PEA lowers opioid/cannabinoid tolerance, this has been extensively discussed here, but it is not at all a potentiator of any opioids, including kratom. Furthermore, as has been mentioned, if taken close to your kratom dose, it would undermine it. I take mine about once a week, closer to midday, and by the next morning, I am almost completely reset, meaning that I get full benefit from my kratom whereas before, it was starting to wane. Also, when I took PEA daily, I stopped feeling kratom altogether because the PEA somehow blocked it. Within 24 hours upon discontinuation of daily PEA intake, my kratom started to work again, but much better than before the PEA blockade which daily intake creates. I suggest once or twice per week dosing pattern as it is more than sufficient to alleviate the ever forming opioid tolerance which kratom use creates. Cat's Claw extract is another MUST in our battle against the evil tolerance, every other day, after your last daily kratom dose. Caveat, Cat's Claw has some stimulating effects which must be mediated considering that for our purpose, it must be taken closer to the evening. Kratom on, children of pain...

Can you please link me to some articles that support this theory. From what I've read, it doesn't affect your kratom.

I was encouraged to do PEA daily for chronic pain

[Theanine]

Can you please link me to some articles that support this theory. From what I've read, it doesn't affect your kratom.

I was encouraged to do PEA daily for chronic pain

It's not really a theory but rather my personal experience with it. Kratom can be quite fickle in its effects, and many supplements affects them, mostly negatively. I do not believe that anything actually enhances it, short of some essential oils (Myrrh), but they rather add their own effects than enhance or potentiate kratom. The focus here is opioid tolerance management, for which Palmitoylethanolamide seems suitable as it enhances the cannabinoid/opioid axis. For me though, there is no better tolerance reverser than the Cat's Claw extract. Also, DLPA completely eliminates any withdrawals from kratom. Alas, that too blocks some of the wonderful effects of kratom, like most other things. The key here is NOT to take any of those supplements WITH your kratom, but rather attempt to take it AFTER your daily kratom intake, assuming you aren't stuck in the around the clock dosing pattern, which is naturally ill advised. One really should take AT LEAST 12 hours off their dosing daily, allowing your body to partly reset its endorphin systems. I take the Palmitoylethanolamide about once per week, which suffices for me. Its daily intake invariably causes the blockage of many of Kratom's positive effects, at least in me. However, that blockade also completely negates one's tolerance to kratom and the Kratom's effects are FULLY regained within about 24 hours post Palmitoylethanolamide discontinuation. I use it as one of the tools in my chest, along with the turmeric extract, cat's claw extract, DLPA, and a few other supplements. As far as scholarly articles addressing this issue, I doubt that they even exists. Again, all of this is largely anecdotal, but google is indeed your ally in this....

I have been an advocate for the Palmitoylethanolamide for a while. In fact, I was the one who started this thread. However, upon various trials, its use as a kratom adjunct has been limited for me. Also, it is quite possible, even likely, that on its own the Palmitoylethanolamide is quite effective at reducing one's pain perception, but ANYTHING which negatively affects my kratom effect must be used judiciously.

[CatfatherB]

Hey Theanine, how does dlpa combat tolerance and, can you use L Tyrosine if you are out of dlpa?

[Theanine]

Hey Theanine, how does dlpa combat tolerance and, can you use L Tyrosine if you are out of dlpa?

I believe DLPA to be a mild opioid in and of itself. Which means that it negates any mild opioid withdrawals. As such, I use it as a kratom substitute in order to lower my kratom tolerance, and it does work. However, as I have previously said, taken TOGETHER with kratom, it negates most of Kratom's effects possibly because it occupies some of the same endorphin receptor sites as Kratom's own alkaloids.

The L-Tyrosine does not share the pharmacodynamic profile with the DLPA, even though Phenylalanine is in the same metabolic dopaminergic pathway as is Tyrosine.

There is nothing better for Kratom's tolerance than the cat's claw extract, it literally brings back kratom for me. However, that too must NOT be taken WITH your kratom... PEA also lowers opioid/cannabinoid tolerances and actually enhances cannabinoids but not opioids, for reasons yet not understood by me.

[guitartodd77]

Hey Theanine, how does dlpa combat tolerance and, can you use L Tyrosine if you are out of dlpa?

I believe DLPA to be a mild opioid in and of itself. Which means that it negates any mild opioid withdrawals. As such, I use it as a kratom substitute in order to lower my kratom tolerance, and it does work. However, as I have previously said, taken TOGETHER with kratom, it negates most of Kratom's effects possibly because it occupies some of the same endorphin receptor sites as Kratom's own alkaloids.

The L-Tyrosine does not share the pharmacodynamic profile with the DLPA, even though Phenylalanine is in the same metabolic dopaminergic pathway as is Tyrosine.

There is nothing better for Kratom's tolerance than the cat's claw extract, it literally brings back kratom for me. However, that too must NOT be taken WITH your kratom... PEA also lowers opioid/cannabinoid tolerances and actually enhances cannabinoids but not opioids, for reasons yet not understood by me.

Which Cat's Claw supplement is considered to be most effective? The South American Uncaria tomentosa Cats Claw or the Chinese Uncaria rhynchophylla "Gou Teng" Cats Claw?

[Theanine]

Hey Theanine, how does dlpa combat tolerance and, can you use L Tyrosine if you are out of dlpa?

I believe DLPA to be a mild opioid in and of itself. Which means that it negates any mild opioid withdrawals. As such, I use it as a kratom substitute in order to lower my kratom tolerance, and it does work. However, as I have previously said, taken TOGETHER with kratom, it negates most of Kratom's effects possibly because it occupies some of the same endorphin receptor sites as Kratom's own alkaloids.

The L-Tyrosine does not share the pharmacodynamic profile with the DLPA, even though Phenylalanine is in the same metabolic dopaminergic pathway as is Tyrosine.

There is nothing better for Kratom's tolerance than the cat's claw extract, it literally brings back kratom for me. However, that too must NOT be taken WITH your kratom... PEA also lowers opioid/cannabinoid tolerances and actually enhances cannabinoids but not opioids, for reasons yet not understood by me.

Which Cat's Claw supplement is considered to be most effective? The South American Uncaria tomentosa Cats Claw or the Chinese Uncaria rhynchophylla "Gou Teng" Cats Claw?

Uncaria Tomentosa. Here is a good source for it: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0013OXCJI/
Less than $5 for a 4 month supply. This is what I personally take.

[vesku88]

Can you please link me to some articles that support this theory. From what I've read, it doesn't affect your kratom.

I was encouraged to do PEA daily for chronic pain

It's not really a theory but rather my personal experience with it. Kratom can be quite fickle in its effects, and many supplements affects them, mostly negatively. I do not believe that anything actually enhances it, short of some essential oils (Myrrh), but they rather add their own effects than enhance or potentiate kratom. The focus here is opioid tolerance management, for which Palmitoylethanolamide seems suitable as it enhances the cannabinoid/opioid axis. For me though, there is no better tolerance reverser than the Cat's Claw extract. Also, DLPA completely eliminates any withdrawals from kratom. Alas, that too blocks some of the wonderful effects of kratom, like most other things. The key here is NOT to take any of those supplements WITH your kratom, but rather attempt to take it AFTER your daily kratom intake, assuming you aren't stuck in the around the clock dosing pattern, which is naturally ill advised. One really should take AT LEAST 12 hours off their dosing daily, allowing your body to partly reset its endorphin systems. I take the Palmitoylethanolamide about once per week, which suffices for me. Its daily intake invariably causes the blockage of many of Kratom's positive effects, at least in me. However, that blockade also completely negates one's tolerance to kratom and the Kratom's effects are FULLY regained within about 24 hours post Palmitoylethanolamide discontinuation. I use it as one of the tools in my chest, along with the turmeric extract, cat's claw extract, DLPA, and a few other supplements. As far as scholarly articles addressing this issue, I doubt that they even exists. Again, all of this is largely anecdotal, but google is indeed your ally in this....

I have been an advocate for the Palmitoylethanolamide for a while. In fact, I was the one who started this thread. However, upon various trials, its use as a kratom adjunct has been limited for me. Also, it is quite possible, even likely, that on its own the Palmitoylethanolamide is quite effective at reducing one's pain perception, but ANYTHING which negatively affects my kratom effect must be used judiciously.

The various scientific articles I've read suggest PEA is good for improving opioid tolerance, lowering it substantially when taken together. But I understand what you're saying too.

[MycatTimmy]

Will PEA cancel out the effects of Gabapentin ?

[Mahoganyrush]

Hi everyone I have been reading this thread alot of great information thanks @theanine for starting the thread and of course giving us great info. I have MS and have had two back surgeries so Keaton for me was for pain and mood boost I like many started at relatively low dose but also liked alot of people worked my way up to 20-25 grams a day, I can barely feel Keaton anymore except for the pain killing qualities even with top shelf leaf. That's when I decided to taper mainly because of this thread, after alot of trial and I only two supplements PEA and Chinese cats claw I use the pea once per week and the cats claw every other night it worked very well for me I'm down to 15 grams now in about a two week period I'm going to try to get down to 10 grams per broken up in three doses. One other point doing it this way I have had no withdrawals I still feel only the pain relief im hoping I can start feeling the mood boost I need especially with MS, anyway sorry about the long message. Tapering can be done everyone has to find what will work for them.

[Theanine]

Hi everyone I have been reading this thread alot of great information thanks @theanine for starting the thread and of course giving us great info. I have MS and have had two back surgeries so Keaton for me was for pain and mood boost I like many started at relatively low dose but also liked alot of people worked my way up to 20-25 grams a day, I can barely feel Keaton anymore except for the pain killing qualities even with top shelf leaf. That's when I decided to taper mainly because of this thread, after alot of trial and I only two supplements PEA and Chinese cats claw I use the pea once per week and the cats claw every other night it worked very well for me I'm down to 15 grams now in about a two week period I'm going to try to get down to 10 grams per broken up in three doses. One other point doing it this way I have had no withdrawals I still feel only the pain relief im hoping I can start feeling the mood boost I need especially with MS, anyway sorry about the long message. Tapering can be done everyone has to find what will work for them.

Thank you for sharing your story with us, your input is appreciated. One note, the Chinese Cat's Claw is Uncaria Rhynchophylla. The opioid tolerance reduction has been noted with the regular Cat's Claw extract, which is Uncaria Tomentosa - a completely different plant species.

Pain relieving effects of kratom are very consistent, even with tolerance. However, the mood lift from it is rather tenuous and difficult to maintain. My personal pain is that of an emotional nature as I am clinically depressed. Luckily, I experience no physical pain at all, aside from occasional back issues. I think it is important to differentiate pain relief and mood lift as different types of kratom effects. As difficult as it is to imagine, I found that CBD and chocolate, especially the dark kind with the high cocoa content, tend to blockade Kratom's mood lift in me. It is inexplicable, however it still remains to be the case. Over multiple trials, the result of my taking either CBD or dark chocolate has been consistently the same -- loss of the mood enhancement associated with kratom. If I vape some CBD and eat some chocolate, the next day I experience NO mood lift at all, no matter the dose or the kind that I take. Perhaps, someone on here could share some insight as to the reasoning behind it. People have approached me before complaining that kratom offers them very little in the way of mood enhancement and most of the time it turned out to be either CBD or chocolate. Within 24 to 48 hours of cessation of either, the mood lift returns, if there ever was one there in the first place. The CBD makes sense, it is a cannabinoid with an unusually long half life of around 12 hours. Which means that it would take at least 24 hours post consumption to clear most of it out of the system. Cannabinoids are well known for conflicting with opioids, partly due to the fact that they endogenously share many of the same receptor sites. Even though Xanthines found in chocolate have a very notable mood lift suppressing effect on kratom their half lives are only a couple of hours and yet its kratom mood lift suppressing effects last at least most of the next day. I have been researching this without much results. Now days, I simply avoid the blocking chemicals. I have found no references to any of this anywhere online and am now seeking some anecdotal evidence which might elucidate what is really happening here. Some may say - placebo, but trust me, it is absolutely not the case as I am quite self aware and the difference to me in kratom "working" versus "not working" is drastic and the only common denominator are the substances mentioned here.

[vesku88]

I've actually read that chinese cats claw works better for K Tolerance

[Mahoganyrush]

@theanine thank you for all the information, I have used both cats claw the South American one and the Chinese in my case worked noticeably better for me, I've also tried agmatine and dlpa they did not seem to have any effect so I just use the cats claw and pea now, also with me having MS it's possible that could be the reason I don't get the mood lift anymore not sure, if you have not tried the Chinese give it try you never know with these herbs lol. Also I have never taken anythese with Kratom only after my last dose at night.

[CatfatherB]

Where do you get your Chinese cats claw?

[Mahoganyrush]

@CatfstherB, I get mine from Meridian botanicals, I just get it there because I know them but there other places if you do a Google search, I always get it in the powder form one teaspoon before bed that's it.

[guitartodd77]

Where do you get your Chinese cats claw?

I have the following.....

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... ObplTLekG8

I use this and chelated Magnesium. The PEA didn't work out for me. Not saying it doesn't work, it just didn't work for me. Best of luck to everyone!

[Theanine]

Where do you get your Chinese cats claw?

I have the following.....

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... ObplTLekG8

I use this and chelated Magnesium. The PEA didn't work out for me. Not saying it doesn't work, it just didn't work for me. Best of luck to everyone!

That's precisely the one that I myself had tried as an alternative to the regular Cat's Claw. For some reason, it was triggering mild headaches in me, but it could work for others. The only reason that I use the regular Cat's Claw is because I know that it works for me, and quite well might I add. The NOW brand of regular Cat's Claw EXTRACT that I get from Amazon is quite effective when compared to the non extract version of it (Starwest Botanicals), not to mention cheap.

How do I even know that it does anything? I stop getting benefits (mood lift) from kratom within about a week off of that Cat's Claw extract. I also start getting mild withdrawals about 8 hours after my last daily kratom dose if I skip my Claw for a few days. So, needless to say, it is an absolute MUST for me, but I still take some days off of it. Most of the time, I just take the turmeric extract or PEA or even the DLPA to alternate. Perhaps, I need to revisit the Chinese version which was referenced here earlier, but personally, I see no reason to change what's clearly working for me.

Also, a yet another added benefit, Cat's Claw is an immune system stimulant. In fact, most take it specifically for that purpose, and now days, it especially matters. I will also attest to its immune stimulating capacity, albeit I can not be completely certain on that one, but I take it at least every other day and I am yet to get a cold in the past couple of years. Also, I have heard that kratom itself is an immune system booster.

[Mahoganyrush]

I would say whatever Cat's Claw works for you continue to use that particular one no.reason to switch if it's working for you and that goes for any supplement or herb I know we have all spent a fair amount of money trying different supplements, also none of them have ever potentiated kratom for me hopefully some of you have found something to work for you.