What's the real story with stem and vein?

[Thekid1420]

I'm just curious how stem and vein works. Are their farmers taking the time to de-stem n de-vein tons of leafs?? If so how does that work? Or is it just left over stems n stuff from a batch. Also how do places like smiley have different types of SnV? It's one of those things the more I think about it, the less sense it makes.

[mivanqua]

Ideally, the leaf you get from a vendor (and the leaf THEY get from Indo) should have as little stem and vein as possible. Those things that look like hairs are allegedly either indo pubes or small veins that don't get ground up well. The rest of the powder is leaf, no stems, no vein. Allegedly. One thing I CAN say is that if the Indo person doesn't remove the stem and vein, you can very much tell. It's really coarse. The trade for the coarseness is the alkaloids from the stem and vein add quite a bit to the experience. You have to try it to understand. It's more...full bodied.

[gumbyke1]

I thought I would chime in my 2 cents here. Outside of the "traditional" uses of S&V, I always believed that visible S&V in a batch was an automatic sign of inferior quality (this opinion was just based off of what I had always read). However, my opinion on that has been changed. I would say most of the time removing the midrib aka "stem" does produce a better product, but it certainly is NOT always the case. In regards to removing all of the veins and veinlets - that requires very sophisticated machinery that to my knowledge nobody is using for kratom production (I by no means claim to know what every single producer is doing, so please somebody correct me if I am wrong). For the sake of not getting too far into the weeds, lets just call it all S&V .

We have done countless consumer tests of the same leaf that has been "de-veined" versus leaving the midrib intact. Some of our best batches have tested better with the midrib left in them. We do not have a fool-proof understanding of when the midrib will enhance the batch vs lowering its quality, but we have recognized one specific pre-harvest variable that seems to influence it.

Regarding the grind - the grind of a batch is more a result of the machinery used to mill it (and is more of a personal preference thing). Leaving the S&V in a batch won't necessarily produce a coarse grind, but the S&V will be much easier to see with the naked eye the more coarse a grind is. When a batch is milled " coarse" you are likely to see what looks like S&V even if the midrib has been removed because there are still veins/veinlets left in the leaf no matter what you do (again, unless you have some very technical machinery). In addition to coarse grinds making it very easy to see, you can often feel it in your mouth... it's a very foreign feeling if you are not used to it.

Let me show you an example... (pardon the clutter in the photos - these are just pictures I had on hand that I am making work for this demonstration. The could be better, but I think they will work well enough)

The below picture shows 3 different grinds from a very high-quality batch we sometimes make very small quantities of called Red Hangat Suma. Since this specific batch was string-dried, the S&V was left intact before milling. As you can see, with the sample on the left you just can't see any S&V by the naked eye, and it gets a bit more visible as the texture gets more coarse.



Now, here is a picture of the fine sample magnified:



And further magnification if you can see it on the computer screen (I know its not very clear, if anyone cares I can take better photos specifically for this topic)




In conclusion, outside of the "traditional" use of S&V, there is still a place for S&V to enhance batches in some scenarios. We have a batch in testing right now that is coarse and "veiny". Its a beautiful sloooow green that I personally am loving.

[mivanqua]

Gumby, what are the black dotty parts in there?

[BurntEnds]

I thought I would chime in my 2 cents here. Outside of the "traditional" uses of S&V, I always believed that visible S&V in a batch was an automatic sign of inferior quality (this opinion was just based off of what I had always read). However, my opinion on that has been changed. I would say most of the time removing the midrib aka "stem" does produce a better product, but it certainly is NOT always the case. In regards to removing all of the veins and veinlets - that requires very sophisticated machinery that to my knowledge nobody is using for kratom production (I by no means claim to know what every single producer is doing, so please somebody correct me if I am wrong). For the sake of not getting too far into the weeds, lets just call it all S&V .

We have done countless consumer tests of the same leaf that has been "de-veined" versus leaving the midrib intact. Some of our best batches have tested better with the midrib left in them. We do not have a fool-proof understanding of when the midrib will enhance the batch vs lowering its quality, but we have recognized one specific pre-harvest variable that seems to influence it.

Regarding the grind - the grind of a batch is more a result of the machinery used to mill it (and is more of a personal preference thing). Leaving the S&V in a batch won't necessarily produce a coarse grind, but the S&V will be much easier to see with the naked eye the more coarse a grind is. When a batch is milled " coarse" you are likely to see what looks like S&V even if the midrib has been removed because there are still veins/veinlets left in the leaf no matter what you do (again, unless you have some very technical machinery). In addition to coarse grinds making it very easy to see, you can often feel it in your mouth... it's a very foreign feeling if you are not used to it.

Let me show you an example... (pardon the clutter in the photos - these are just pictures I had on hand that I am making work for this demonstration. The could be better, but I think they will work well enough)

The below picture shows 3 different grinds from a very high-quality batch we sometimes make very small quantities of called Red Hangat Suma. Since this specific batch was string-dried, the S&V was left intact before milling. As you can see, with the sample on the left you just can't see any S&V by the naked eye, and it gets a bit more visible as the texture gets more coarse.



Now, here is a picture of the fine sample magnified:



And further magnification if you can see it on the computer screen (I know its not very clear, if anyone cares I can take better photos specifically for this topic)




In conclusion, outside of the "traditional" use of S&V, there is still a place for S&V to enhance batches in some scenarios. We have a batch in testing right now that is coarse and "veiny". Its a beautiful sloooow green that I personally am loving.

I continue to be more and more impressed with the level of attention to detail you pay in respect to EVERY aspect of the production process AND how willing you are to spread the knowledge you are amassing! Thank you Gumby for being a valued and needed part of this community

[mivanqua]

gumby is the coolest of the cool. He probably has an olive drab (kratom colored) leather jacket and one of.those switchblade combs.

[gumbyke1]

Gumby, what are the black dotty parts in there?

Don't worry, they are just darker bits of the leaf or stems. If you think about it, there are all different colors of leaf matter after its dried - it all gets pulverized into tiny pieces that mix. A lot of kratom looks like that up close - I think that was maybe 200x magnification?

[gumbyke1]

Thanks yall! Hmm... Im thinking that I should move this post into the "behind the scenes" post.

[RumRunner]

Hey Gumby, some people say stem & vein has a different alkaloid profile and others say it’s merely a milder
kratom version. And it’s a milder form of kratom, wouldn’t gas station garbage work just as well for T breaks?