Behind The Scenes Of The Kratom Industry

[gravystainonmyshirt]

Wow, props to Gumbyke. I have a new respect for you man. I would be interested in trying the kratom you recommend from you site for sure.

After watching that video , it makes me wonder what all i am ingesting when i dose, i knew it was a bit ghetto how they process it but after seeing it , i feel a bit worried now. Definitely not anywhere near sanitary.

[e_poison]

Great work on this! Epic posts like this to need to go in a special hall of fame area for the best of the best threads.

[conscious_conundrum]

This is all very informative....thank you for taking the time to educate!!

[Theanine]

Gumbyke has a wealth of knowledge to share with his fellow kratomites.
Very good information which every Kratom user ought to be aware of.
This is definitely a sticky able post if there ever was one.
Thank You for all of this, Gumbyke!
You are a true treasure for this group

[gumbyke1]

Thanks everyone! I heard a lot of feedback that folks would like to see more steps of the process like washing, grinding, etc. I contacted my team last night (Indo is on opposite time as us) and asked that they send me some pictures of that process, Ill post them later this evening! Ill also ask them to use a drone to show how old trees are harvested... its awesome you will see!

[gumbyke1]

Cool video, Ballz. A couple things I noticed was 1) they washed off the leaves in "clean fresh water ".... and where exactly does the sewage from all these buildings go? 3rd world countries typically dump their sewage into the closest body of water. In one of gumby's photos you can see a concrete ditch right outside each house. Those are sewage channels that flow to streams. So that alone gives me the creeps. 2) in the last segment they show a guy on a dock hand scrubbing each leaf for an extended period. Really? They really scrub each & every leaf for 30 seconds? That's difficult to believe. I seriously doubt that's standard protocol.

Gumby's write up is the most realistic & informative kratom documentation I've ever seen. Thanks for all the time you put into this.

Thanks, Pray4peace! I just wanted to follow up on this comment because I get a lot of questions about washing. I cans share some detail about the most common washing methods (when they are washed), but I can assure you that it is possible to have the leaves scrubbed individually. Ill make a post in the original thread when I get it so that everyone can see it.

However, I should say that what I saw in that video appears to be all for the show to me (I want to be clear, I do not know for sure). The reason I say that is they don't have any kind of developed special techniques or processes visible. The people "scrubbing and washing" are doing it for way too long, and they look like how I would if I gave it a try for my first time. This is something I can spot easily thanks to my professional work experience.... it just smells like its a dog and pony show. If you are going to be processing literally hundreds of thousands of leaves, you will have a time-efficient assembly process to do so. You would not be doing what you saw in that video. Now again, that doesn't mean they don't wash normally, perhaps they just embellished a little for the video... who knows.

[twistedvincent]

The video was removed Ballz....unfortunately. I would really like to see it.

[gumbyke1]

The video was removed Ballz....unfortunately. I would really like to see it.

The video that the Honerable Ballz posted is still there. Its the link at the very bottom of his post on page 1.

[brave777]

The video was removed Ballz....unfortunately. I would really like to see it.

The video that the Honerable Ballz posted is still there. Its the link at the very bottom of his post on page 1.

Did anyone make youtube video back up? it was removed.

[herbalhippie]

The video was removed Ballz....unfortunately. I would really like to see it.

The video that the Honerable Ballz posted is still there. Its the link at the very bottom of his post on page 1.

YouTube removed it as a 'violation of community standards'. wtf?

[brave777]

The video was removed Ballz....unfortunately. I would really like to see it.

The video that the Honerable Ballz posted is still there. Its the link at the very bottom of his post on page 1.

YouTube removed it as a 'violation of community standards'. wtf?

Someone needs to start uploading on new plat forms, youtube does remove from all users at least once or more. And there is millions of users, they are ficked in head who ever their A.I. programmer coders are. They making it worse for there own kids and they don't even know it. Its not even youtube, its A.I. removing shit, they restore it right away when you ask them why they removed it with a little group backing up. If this whole community asks, they will restore it regardless if youtube A.I. deletion. But why the problem asking each time video removed? Just up it on new platforms. Or learn which key words A.I. looks for to delete videos to avoid it. I remember someone on youtube uploads random home made video with wrong key words or political, it auto removed, no questions asked. Youtube is fraud fake right now. You can have stuff on youtbe they dont want with silly names but most likely people wont find it. Most likely anything related kratom, or legit info, will be removed to keep us in the dark.

[gumbyke1]

Thats crazy that it is gone now... that video has been there for like ever.

Here is another video by the same guy. I know it says Natural Quantum, but its the same guy who does JongKong kratom. His name is "Rafa", but he also goes by "Jimmy" when dealing with folks in the US. If you view his channel, you will see other kratom videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV997-qm_bY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzSIzTLuiIM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNMpOvxAxLA

I think these videos tell you a lot about the priority of safety and sanitation in the industry. These are videos made by one of the biggest kratom producers/suppliers in the country as an advertisement to showcase how nice/clean/great of an operation he runs. If anyone understands the importance of managing perceptions, its this guy. I don't want to remark on any one supplier, so I'll let you decide if this is satisfactory.

However, I will call out the color of that kratom in the end of the first video looks a little off. Seriously, if you have never seen radioactive kratom, take a look at at it? How do I get THAT, lol?

[brave777]

I feel very lucky to be part of this forum and watching all the cool stuff unfold, like gumpys posts. I still think the first video where the guys already washed the leaf in water, clean each leaf with a brush to be an over kill.... now i honestly think its just made for us Americans and that brush is forgotten as soon as the camera went offline. There is no way someone going to spend all this time brushing every leaf after its already been washed. Is there a point to it? I don't know why but it just annoys me that they do such things to make us happy. Ah i so wish my backyard was filled with these tree's, i wont need any fruit trees or anything else. So i see that some tree's grow in water, i got one and its always loopy, looks like leafs down on hot day. I think i need to start adding a lot more water.

Is there such thing as over water for kratom tree? Or they love lots of water>?

[gumbyke1]

I feel very lucky to be part of this forum and watching all the cool stuff unfold, like gumpys posts. I still think the first video where the guys already washed the leaf in water, clean each leaf with a brush to be an over kill.... now i honestly think its just made for us Americans and that brush is forgotten as soon as the camera went offline. There is no way someone going to spend all this time brushing every leaf after its already been washed. Is there a point to it? I don't know why but it just annoys me that they do such things to make us happy. Ah i so wish my backyard was filled with these tree's, i wont need any fruit trees or anything else. So i see that some tree's grow in water, i got one and its always loopy, looks like leafs down on hot day. I think i need to start adding a lot more water.

Is there such thing as over water for kratom tree? Or they love lots of water>?

I assure you that there are processors that wash the leaves carefully, but this is not something that farmers/harvesters will do on their own accord (not that I have found). If you provide the right incentives you can get close partners to process all of the leaves to your specifications. The average factory workers wage in Indonesia is 50 cents an hour, and manual day laborers make even less. With my main partner, it is a family business so the whole family pitches in so the labor is abundant and cheap. When you develop a very efficient assembly line type of process, you can really wash leaves quite quickly (and cheaply).

Through our friendship, there is trust that the processes we aligned on are being followed, but I must also frequently verify (there are ways to verify thanks to Whatsapp video chat ). Ive been disappointed in that regards before, so when working with my partners over there I now live by a motto... trust but verify.

Regarding over watering, no ... you cant really over water a kratom tree. Most of the kratom farms are right along the Kaupus River.

[SpeciosaLife]

Wait, you mean these are fake lab reports from a supplier I was evaluating? I would have never guessed! (sarcasm, but legit, the exact same report)

[herbalhippie]

oh my

[Theanine]

WOW, there really is no telling what is in the Kratom that we consume from unknown sources!
I mix mine into a paste with the Lemon juice and then add hot, not boiling, water for further processing/disinfection.
That process should eliminate whatever microbes were left in the powder due to improper processing, which seems to be a rule rather than exception.

My question to Gumbyke is where does one obtain the superior Texas Family Harvest? I am sure that it's members only.
Do you think that Botanical Bunny's fare is on par with the Texas Family Harvest?
Seeing the horrific harvesting and processing practices in Indonesia makes me weary about where I get my next kilogram!

In any case, this is all very useful information, even if it is scary. Caveat emptor to be sure.....

Trust but verify indeed!

-Mikhail Gorbachev

[brave777]

And yet red dirt tasting kratom is some of the best relaxing effects I ever tried. I been doing for a long time very hot water 195F half cup, add dose, stir it for 3 seconds and add regular water rest of cup to make it warm. Never had issues. I do think hot water helps destroy microbes? It's also the best way to consume dose, i did start with toss and wash until i transitioned to hot water cup method. Like lucky herbals red bali, is red and looks like dirt or even smells like it but very very nice relaxing blanket feel to it that i enjoy. When from reading these post, kratom suppose to be green, right? Wonder why some of the best kratom is red, dirt like tasting?


Something extra, some parts of the world consume dirt to heal from cancer. Also is it true that a lot of B12 is made out of dirt? or just a rumor? Thats why i never got a B12 supplement because most just have b12 stamp on it but who knows what it is made of. I do have some blueberry's bushes and when it rains the lower half of bush gets some dirt on it from red clay, i been eating ripe blueberry's with dirt and still no issues.

[Theanine]

And yet red dirt tasting kratom is some of the best relaxing effects I ever tried. I been doing for a long time very hot water 195F half cup, add dose, stir it for 3 seconds and add regular water rest of cup to make it warm. Never had issues. I do think hot water helps destroy microbes? It's also the best way to consume dose, i did start with toss and wash until i transitioned to hot water cup method. Like lucky herbals red bali, is red and looks like dirt or even smells like it but very very nice relaxing blanket feel to it that i enjoy. When from reading these post, kratom suppose to be green, right? Wonder why some of the best kratom is red, dirt like tasting?

Yes, hot water will kill most germs, but not all. Boiling water will kill ALL germs, as well as some alkaloids. So, warm water with a citric acid base is best, citric kills what the hot water won't.

Red Kratom is oxidized Kratom. Think regular green or black tea, it is one plant, Camelia Sinesis, there isn't even another strain of it in existence and yet there is white, black, oolong, etc teas, all come form the same exact plant, but grown and processed differently. Black tea is a fully fermented product which is equivalent to Red type of kratom, Oolong -- Green and White tea is White Kratom. The Green/Black tea also differs in its effects. With Kratom, the same principle of oxidation is involved. Oxidation by the sun or other means causes the darkening of the final product.

The dirt is simply a result of poorly processed plant, look at some of Gumbyke's videos, its downright scary! Some farmers just dry it in the dirt and walk all over it while thinking that they are maintaining some kind of a standard. That's third world country for ya...

[brave777]

Yeah i seen the video. Where guys walks overs kratom leafs and in middle of village drying on tarp, that's pretty wild. Thanks Theanine for breaking it down. Oxidation by the sun what changes color to red if understand correctly? Or darken it? So the most relaxing strains are Oxidized? I know greens usually more speedy like Green Malay for example. Def great info.

[Theanine]

Yeah i seen the video. Where guys walks overs kratom leafs and in middle of village drying on tarp, that's pretty wild. Thanks Theanine for breaking it down. Oxidation by the sun what changes color to red if understand correctly? Or darken it? So the most relaxing strains are Oxidized? I know greens usually more speedy like Green Malay for example. Def great info.

There is not much research on this, so many would disagree, but it does make sense, even though there is MUCH more to it than that, but it goes something like this:

Mitragynine, an opioid which occurs naturally in the plant and has stimulating properties. (0.5% - 3%)

7-hydroxymitragynine, an opioid which occurs in Kratom in negligible amounts, and is an oxidized version of Mitragynine. (NEGLIGIBLE)

During the curing process, the plant is oxidized, sometimes to the point of fermentation. That oxidative process, does not only turn the leaf brownish color, mostly due to chlorophyl breakdown, but it also converts some of the Mitragynine into its sedating form, 7-hydroxymitragynine which is a dozen times more potent than the Mitragynine. While, at the same time, some of the Mitragynine is lost to that conversion (up to 8%). There is also the natural alkaloid degradation which occurs during oxidation, so much of the simulating Mitragynine is lost, but the 7-hydroxymitragynine makes up for it, due to its potency. So, oxidative curing of this plant, which turns it brown (Red) completely changes its alkaloid profile from the stimulating Mitragynine dominant to the depressive 7-hydroxymitragynine dominant with simultaneous reduction of the Mitragynine. A way to prove that hypothesis would be to test the red variety for the 7-hydroxymitragynine contents which should be higher than their White/Green counter parts. It is well known that the Reds tend to have less Mitragynine, but do they actually have more 7-hydroxymitragynine? If so, this hypothesis would stand. Just throwing some ideas around is all, trying to understand the plant myself...

[brave777]

You have great idea, so far best one, if someone can point me to more scientific break down then do so, so far i will keep your idea. Thanks for sharing it.

On a side note, i will be testing some fast energetic powder, leaving it in the sun in ziplock and flipping and shaking it once in a while, want to see if it makes it more sedation into 7 instead mitra. If it does, i assume everyone will want to ziplock it and leave it in the sun to make more relaxing kratom. I do remember i had a ziplock in back window car once and forgot, it did turn red, but since i sold my car i don't know what i did with it. I ll def take pics before and after, but might be months since kratom in ziplock needs to be shifted often. Unless little kratom like tea spoon and shifted in the biggest ziplock possible , that way all powder gets direct sunlight. If someone can spare a little in ziplock and join me. The more people join the better conclusions we will have.

[Theanine]

You have great idea, so far best one, if someone can point me to more scientific break down then do so, so far i will keep your idea. Thanks for sharing it.

On a side note, i will be testing some fast energetic powder, leaving it in the sun in ziplock and flipping and shaking it once in a while, want to see if it makes it more sedation into 7 instead mitra. If it does, i assume everyone will want to ziplock it and leave it in the sun to make more relaxing kratom.

No worries, fellow Kratomite! That hypothesis was an oversimplification for the purposes of illustration. Oxidation changes ALL of plant's alkaloids to some extent, so focusing just on the main ones does not provide a full picture, but it's a start.

I too had that idea, it is worth a try. The problem is the enzymes which are involved in alkaloid cyclicality may not be present in the ground leaf or perhaps even a crushed leaf. That process must take place in a whole plant, at least from my understanding of it. So, trying to oxidize a finished product is unlikely to work. However, it just might! I was thinking about the very same experiment, but haven't gotten to it. If after 24 hours in the sun, the browning does occur, then it must be working. If so, then all you will ever need is some unprocessed White, which you can turn any color yourself. Oxidize it for Red, blend that Red with more White for Green. I am afraid that it's not that simple. Please, keep us updated as to your result, with pictures if possible, thanks!

[herbalhippie]

You have great idea, so far best one, if someone can point me to more scientific break down then do so, so far i will keep your idea. Thanks for sharing it.

On a side note, i will be testing some fast energetic powder, leaving it in the sun in ziplock and flipping and shaking it once in a while, want to see if it makes it more sedation into 7 instead mitra. If it does, i assume everyone will want to ziplock it and leave it in the sun to make more relaxing kratom. I do remember i had a ziplock in back window car once and forgot, it did turn red, but since i sold my car i don't know what i did with it. I ll def take pics before and after, but might be months since kratom in ziplock needs to be shifted often. Unless little kratom like tea spoon and shifted in the biggest ziplock possible , that way all powder gets direct sunlight. If someone can spare a little in ziplock and join me. The more people join the better conclusions we will have.

I did this last year. Might have left it out too long though. It bleached out the color. The taste was markedly different. Can't really tell if the effects were different though.

[herbalhippie]

Just finished catching up on your updates and videos. Thanks for all the work you're putting into this, gumby.

[HappyHulu]

Thanks again, Gumby. I look forward to seeing the updates. This may be a whacky question, but is there anyway to list the responsible vendors, besides you (since you are not taking any new customers), that I can purchase from? You could even send me a message, if that would be better. I've always been concerned about the cleanliness of this leaf, so I would be willing to pay for Kratom that is cleaned and processed properly.

[herbalhippie]

Thanks for the update, gumby! Can hardly wait to get home from work and read it.

[Theanine]

Now bringing up Malaysian kratom probably brings some of you to say, “Wait a minute, I read a study that true-Malaysian and true-Thai kratom does have a different alkaloid profile”. This statement would be true on average, but not because it is a different genetic strain. It's well known that true-Malaysian kratom (not the stuff your vendor calls Malay or Malaysian) does on average when compared to Indonesian kratom have a lower % of Mitragynine and a higher % of 7ohm. Conversely, true-Thai kratom (not what your vendor calls Thai) on average has a much higher % of Mitragynine but almost zero % of 7ohm. However, the actual cause of these variations are not a result of being a different species, they simply have different growing conditions due to their geographical location (soil composition, climate, etc…).

You are so appreciated for releasing this truth, Gumbyke!

It does make sense, Kratom is a commodity in Indonesia, and it is processed just like any commodity, as cheaply as possible and in bulk.
Farm to table is the way to a much better product, it will be more costly to produce, but definitely worth it.
Imagine, every strain is fire!

I have been searching for any concrete information on how the true Malays are different from true Thai/Vietnamese varieties. I personally experience very distinct differences between them. I detest Green Malays, there is energy there, but they make me edgy and generally unwell, while Thai/MD varieties make me very happy with their euphoria which all Malays lack. This specific difference has been very consistent across multiple vendors to be a placebo effect. Even in the blind test, which is a true tell, I can tell those two types apart. Malays just feel "cracky" to me, other Kratom does NOT.....

[amagdalene]

Great work on this! Epic posts like this to need to go in a special hall of fame area for the best of the best threads.

I second this

[GrannyJ62]

Wow thank you so much.Alot of great info right here at my fingertip.

[e_poison]

Great work on this! Epic posts like this to need to go in a special hall of fame area for the best of the best threads.

I second this

I’ll be making a forum for best of the best threads soon where mods can move excellent threads, like this one.

[BurntEnds]

First post as a new member.... all I can say is wow, dropping some knowledge!!! Thank you Gumby for sharing your insight and personal experience, and to everyone else who has added to this thread! There is so much of this I've seen hinted at but mostly hidden away and not openly talked about. I love the fact you have provided so much tangible support like pictures and conversations for what you say to be true. It's all appreciated even the not so pretty facts and I look forward to more updates.

I've been a lurker on MM for a few weeks and I must say I'm super grateful I stumbled across it It seems there's a high percentage of truly knowledgeable people active on here which is exactly what I've been looking for

[Theanine]

Great work on this! Epic posts like this to need to go in a special hall of fame area for the best of the best threads.

I second this

I’ll be making a forum for best of the best threads soon where mods can move excellent threads, like this one.

A most excellent idea!

[SpeciosaLife]

The video was removed Ballz....unfortunately. I would really like to see it.

The video that the Honerable Ballz posted is still there. Its the link at the very bottom of his post on page 1.

Did anyone make youtube video back up? it was removed.

Still on his insta:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BqovNxzAjF1 ... zsbw1y592k

[Laurie]

I wrote a long winded reply that won’t fit here. I saved it in case we ever exchange dialogue. Thanks for compiling this information AND WITH PHOTOS! Awesome !

[gumbyke1]

Wait, you mean these are fake lab reports from a supplier I was evaluating? I would have never guessed! (sarcasm, but legit, the exact same report)

Lol I just saw this... dont know how I missed that. The next time I get one of those Im going to send them a link to this post

Thank you, everyone, for your kind words and encouragement! This week is a busy week for us but Im going to try and add a new update by Friday!

[ModestMark90]

Never knew or even thought about any of this in my years of kratom use. Seriously eye opening information here. I’m now extremely skeptical of purchasing any kratom at all, just so I don’t feel duped at a minimum.

[mivanqua]

Never knew or even thought about any of this in my years of kratom use. Seriously eye opening information here. I’m now extremely skeptical of purchasing any kratom at all, just so I don’t feel duped at a minimum.

What does any of this REALLY matter? I mean, I LOVE this series of posts and Gumby seems like a real stand up guy and very intelligent. ESPECIALLY to his credit, he won't even sell kratom to his testers OR people on this forum and I think that has more to do with credibility that the "bulk seller" reason and that's admirable. And by the way, I've tried his kratom as a potential tester that fucked up, and it's some of the best EVER. I digress....
What DOES this all matter? Even WITH all of this "occult kratom knowledge," isn't the important thing that it works for you? He's stated a couple of times at least that vendors aren't always complicit in this scam, and when they are, they don't know it. Some vendors are sketchy. That's true. But most, methinks, do their best. Just remember why you take kratom. What if you found out that even Gumby is lying and all kratom is actually grown in Newfoundland. Would you care or just say "OK?" Besides, kraton is also very misunderstood in general. Even by those of us that are regular users. I would like to think that it's more misunderstanding than disinformation. I'm sure even Harry of Kratom OG is duped on at least one of his strains. Has to be! That can't ALL be correct and factual. Not with this much at play and him being literally on the other side of the world. But he's not LYING either. He's telling you what they are telling him. No more, no less.
It is what it is.

[gumbyke1]

Never knew or even thought about any of this in my years of kratom use. Seriously eye-opening information here. I’m now extremely skeptical of purchasing any kratom at all, just so I don’t feel duped at a minimum.

Hey Mark - appreciate the comment. I wouldn't be an advocate of people being skeptical about purchasing kratom, especially from the kind of quality vendors you can find in forums like this. In my opinion, the very best vendors are those who are popular with the real kratom enthusiasts (like this forum or some of the other close kratom communities). You just won't gain popularity in these parts unless you are bringing the quality product.

I can't /won't speak for any specific vendors here, but I have to think that many of them are great at what they do... and that is providing quality leaf. I myself order from them time-to-time just to keep current, and I have zero hesitation with the ones I am familiar with. For finding a quality vendor, this forum can be your best friend!

[gumbyke1]

Never knew or even thought about any of this in my years of kratom use. Seriously eye opening information here. I’m now extremely skeptical of purchasing any kratom at all, just so I don’t feel duped at a minimum.

What does any of this REALLY matter? I mean, I LOVE this series of posts and Gumby seems like a real stand up guy and very intelligent. ESPECIALLY to his credit, he won't even sell kratom to his testers OR people on this forum and I think that has more to do with credibility that the "bulk seller" reason and that's admirable. And by the way, I've tried his kratom as a potential tester that fucked up, and it's some of the best EVER. I digress....
What DOES this all matter? Even WITH all of this "occult kratom knowledge," isn't the important thing that it works for you? He's stated a couple of times at least that vendors aren't always complicit in this scam, and when they are, they don't know it. Some vendors are sketchy. That's true. But most, methinks, do their best. Just remember why you take kratom. What if you found out that even Gumby is lying and all kratom is actually grown in Newfoundland. Would you care or just say "OK?" Besides, kraton is also very misunderstood in general. Even by those of us that are regular users. I would like to think that it's more misunderstanding than disinformation. I'm sure even Harry of Kratom OG is duped on at least one of his strains. Has to be! That can't ALL be correct and factual. Not with this much at play and him being literally on the other side of the world. But he's not LYING either. He's telling you what they are telling him. No more, no less.
It is what it is.

I agree 100% Mivanqua - at the end of the day what is important is that you are happy with the product you have, and it works for you. And you are correct on your point that nobody can be sure of anything... anyone who plays in the kratom can has been / will be duped. As a matter of fact, I actually wonder sometimes if my kratom actually comes from Heaven and NOT Indonesia like I am lead to believe....

PS - you didnt mess up, Id be honored to have you as a tester for the new batches I got in