Less is more…is facts

[oftheshire]

So I been taking 4.5 g for a while and nothing been hitting literally at all. Got some new nodfather and oties and they weren’t hitting. Tried 3g last night and was best burn in ages, I also ate cheese with it instead of just peanut butter so that could affect it a bit too. Today I tried 2.5g and it’s even better, strong af and lasts hours vs 30 minutes. So counter intuitive I really thought less is more wouldn’t apply to me. Also, I’ve taken the same strain 4 days in a row with both these burns (green nod day and red nod at night)so it would prob be even heavier with new strains. The difference is night and day. S/o balls and kelley

[boureka]

Yay!!!

[Kelleytoons]

Yeah, it's really weird and SO counterintuitive but something that cannot be repeated enough.

[MetalMamaRocks]

Citrus will also help boost the effects. If I eat an orange about 30 minutes after a burn it bumps it through the roof!

[Kelleytoons]

Citric acid. I drink Propel (main ingredient, after water, is citric acid).

The idea is to change the Ph to be more acidic. Ideal way is to take it at the same time as your kratom (you want it in the stomach simultaneously).

[oftheshire]

interesting, I usually just soak my green mud in mio or lemon juice or ACV for 15-30 minutes, didn’t think drinking something before or with would do anything, might try tonight.

[Kelleytoons]

The conventional wisdom was to drink with orange juice. Back when I was TRYING the powder (all I do is capsules nowadays) I did do it that way.

Any such fruit like oranges, lemons or limes will work. But Propel for me is far easier to handle (too much sugar in the fruit juices, and I'm not much for fresh fruit).

[RedWhiteAndGreen]

Citric acid definitely works. Fresh lemon juice, lime juice, even Mio or Country Time Lemonade flavored drink mix all work. However, if you can get your hands on Trader Joe's Jalapeno Limeade, even just a couple sips after your dose will intensify the sensation significantly. Plus it's delicious.

[oftheshire]

Citric acid definitely works. Fresh lemon juice, lime juice, even Mio or Country Time Lemonade flavored drink mix all work. However, if you can get your hands on Trader Joe's Jalapeno Limeade, even just a couple sips after your dose will intensify the sensation significantly. Plus it's delicious.

Interesting, always wondered if spicy things effected burns at all. Never seen people talk about it much.

[RedWhiteAndGreen]

Citric acid definitely works. Fresh lemon juice, lime juice, even Mio or Country Time Lemonade flavored drink mix all work. However, if you can get your hands on Trader Joe's Jalapeno Limeade, even just a couple sips after your dose will intensify the sensation significantly. Plus it's delicious.

Interesting, always wondered if spicy things effected burns at all. Never seen people talk about it much.

Ginger is a bit spicy and it also enhances a burn. I wonder what effect eating something like a banana pepper might have.

[oftheshire]

Citric acid definitely works. Fresh lemon juice, lime juice, even Mio or Country Time Lemonade flavored drink mix all work. However, if you can get your hands on Trader Joe's Jalapeno Limeade, even just a couple sips after your dose will intensify the sensation significantly. Plus it's delicious.

Interesting, always wondered if spicy things effected burns at all. Never seen people talk about it much.

Ginger is a bit spicy and it also enhances a burn. I wonder what effect eating something like a banana pepper might have.

It’s science time

[Rambo]

Does anyone else have a fluctuating tolerance, almost like a sine wave? By that I mean, low doses work for a while (7-15 days for me, 2-3g serving size), then suddenly the burns have absolutely 0 effect. After raising my dose by some 20-30% at a time, the burns come back, again for 7-15 days, then it stops hitting entirely and when that happens I find the lower doses are effective once more.

I suspect it’s because I dose 3x a day, maybe my tolerance would be stable if I limited to 2x daily but I find that difficult.

I’ve been burning on and off for more than 12 years but have always had this kind of unstable tolerance after the first year

[boureka]

I have mysterious flat periods that come and then go just as mysteriously. But raising my dose never helps.

[Kelleytoons]

Nowadays I'm dosing about three times a day regularly - before my surgery I was only doing two but, oddly enough, now that I'm out of extreme pain I find I can fit three in (the middle one is just for mood - both the first and last are mostly for pain relief). But I'm on an about six month "everything hits and hits well" run that I've tried to analyze and the only thing I can come up with is that I am eating regularly about 30 minutes after I dose on an empty stomach.

There are quite a few prescribed meds that ask you to do this - take it 30 minutes before eating - and I *think* this is why kratom (for ME) is working so well now (my schedule changed when our daughter came back to live with us). Even my nighttime dose, taken an hour or two before sleep, I now follow up with a high fat "snack" (usually dark chocolate covered in peanut butter). I am then blissfully hitting strong and sleep is SO nice.

My doses are nearly always 2.5 grams - except for the nighttime reds (which I always take 3 grams of). The only time I really change is sometimes my morning and/or middle dose I lower to 2 grams. This pattern seems to work perfectly for me (and I NEVER go more than 3 grams. No matter what. Haven't done this for over a year and it works just fine).

[RedWhiteAndGreen]

I think good sleep is important as well. After a poor night of sleep, it just doesn't work as well. And with that in mind, I've found that on mornings after a poor night of sleep, when the burn falls flat, if I take a nap later on that same day I will occasionally awaken from that nap feeling the sensation of a high quality intense burn. Finicky plant.

[IdiopathicPain247]

I am hoping that eventually I can take less, but for now I am taking 18gpd. I have yet to have tolerance issues. I have acute pain 24/7, so if this dosing doesn't cause tolerance issues, is there a danger of addiction? I have have been reading hundreds of user reviews and about 1/3 of the doses are higher than what I am taking daily, and they have been doing this dose for many, many years with no problems.

[Greenmonster]

Less is more really is true! I’ve joined this club fairly recently and had very good results. My burns are much more effective and last longer. I also feel better overall when I take less.

I want to take a t break at the end of this month and I think it will be a lot easier than my last attempt thanks to “less is more” because my gpd is about half what it was and I’m hoping this will help to minimize discomfort.

Anyway, I lurk here a lot but I’m grateful for the folks who talk about less is more so often.

[boureka]

I am hoping that eventually I can take less, but for now I am taking 18gpd. I have yet to have tolerance issues. I have acute pain 24/7, so if this dosing doesn't cause tolerance issues, is there a danger of addiction? I have have been reading hundreds of user reviews and about 1/3 of the doses are higher than what I am taking daily, and they have been doing this dose for many, many years with no problems.

I can't speak for you and certainly to your pain. Pain patients do seem to need higher doses but what I can say is, keep it as low as possible. Keep trying to lower it and do not raise it. The truism that everyone is unique notwithstanding, the odds are that at 18 gpd over a long period of time, you will eventually face tolerance issues. And the only thing you'll be able to (effectively) do then is lower your dose. Wishing you good luck.
As far as addiction goes, that's such a complex issue. Different folks even define addiction differently. And then there's the difference between physical and psychological addictions. The answer to your question is multifactorial and way above my pay grade. I do know that the physically addictive properties of kratom are likely no worse than with coffee.

[Kelleytoons]

I am hoping that eventually I can take less, but for now I am taking 18gpd. I have yet to have tolerance issues. I have acute pain 24/7

Everyone's pain is different, so it's hard to generalize, but before my knee replacement I felt like this, but still kept my doses low. You don't say how long you've been taking but if it's longer than a year or two you're probably fine. *Most* people find that taking as much as you do will stop working COMPLETELY in six months or so. At that point you'll need a break (at least a few weeks) just to get working at all again. I would strongly encourage you to start tapering down before that happens.

Even in my worse pain I wasn't taking more than 9 gpd - it's a good dose for me even now (although it's more like 7).

[IdiopathicPain247]

I found Kratom about 3 months ago. Before that I was getting a bit desperate, I was starting down the path of Tramadol. I started Kratom very slowly, and took others advice on adding .5 grams every 1/2 hour until the pain subsided. I asked a vendor who only takes about 8 gpd and they said the 4 grams is not that much, but I should try to keep it there and DO NOT raise it anymore. Tapering and taking a break was suggested just like here. I hear you all. Like all us, "I am doing the best I can." I need to find out if Kratom will give me relief before I make any other decisions about managing the pain, fatigue, and sleeplessness.

[Catcrazy]

Does anyone else have a fluctuating tolerance, almost like a sine wave? By that I mean, low doses work for a while (7-15 days for me, 2-3g serving size), then suddenly the burns have absolutely 0 effect. After raising my dose by some 20-30% at a time, the burns come back, again for 7-15 days, then it stops hitting entirely and when that happens I find the lower doses are effective once more.

I suspect it’s because I dose 3x a day, maybe my tolerance would be stable if I limited to 2x daily but I find that difficult.

I’ve been burning on and off for more than 12 years but have always had this kind of unstable tolerance after the first year

Interesting that you mentioned this, as my husband and I have questioned the lack of effects of our daily doses for the last 6 months. We vary vendors daily, our doses are 2-2.5 grams at a time, he takes more doses through out the day, I take less maybe 3-4 times a day. We concluded that perhaps the seasons crop are not as good as previous years? Idk.... worth questioning! Thank you for your insightful thoughts!

[Kelleytoons]

Interesting that you mentioned this, as my husband and I have questioned the lack of effects of our daily doses for the last 6 months. We vary vendors daily, our doses are 2-2.5 grams at a time, he takes more doses through out the day, I take less maybe 3-4 times a day. We concluded that perhaps the seasons crop are not as good as previous years? Idk.... worth questioning! Thank you for your insightful thoughts!

And the other, usual, things? (Take only an an empty stomach, eat about 30 minutes afterwards, take with an acidic drink like orange juice or grapefruit, and make sure you are having a BM at least once a day). If you do that AND you frequent the "good" vendors (small vendors rated here) there have been no better batches the last year or so (so this is a GREAT time to be buying).

[marvelous]

usually take 2G and find it a happy median for energy/uplift but moreso have been trying to keep it at bay as I could see it inching higher and higher if move the needle

[Loveandpeace]

usually take 2G and find it a happy median for energy/uplift but moreso have been trying to keep it at bay as I could see it inching higher and higher if move the needle

If you feel the need to 'move the needle', apply a +/- approach. Please listen!

Ex. Does 2 grams and bump up .4. If that doesn't work? pay attention to that. Just bump +.2 next time, if that doesn't work? Start over at 2 grams and go -.4.

Does this make sense?

[Yeezit]

usually take 2G and find it a happy median for energy/uplift but moreso have been trying to keep it at bay as I could see it inching higher and higher if move the needle

If you feel the need to 'move the needle', apply a +/- approach. Please listen!

Ex. Does 2 grams and bump up .4. If that doesn't work? pay attention to that. Just bump +.2 next time, if that doesn't work? Start over at 2 grams and go -.4.

Does this make sense?

This is exactly what I do. Great suggestion here!

[boureka]

Why not skip the bump and try your next dose at the adjusted weight?

[Kelleytoons]

Why not skip the bump and try your next dose at the adjusted weight?

I assume that's what every one is talking about. As a rule of thumb, you cannot "add on" kratom to a dose. That's chasing the burn (or whatever effect you are looking for) and never works. While there is *some* anecdotal evidence you can take a bit more somewhat later (the 2/3 rule - take 2/3 of your normal dose and 30 minutes later take the additional third) after that very short window (no more than 30 minutes) it will do no good to take more because whatever effects are already there and cannot be changed.

So, yes, I think we are ALL taking about simply upping the TOTAL DOSE the next time you dose. You can't just add small amounts every 30 minutes and expect any kind of understanding of what your dose should be.

[Bestboy143]

Citric acid. I drink Propel (main ingredient, after water, is citric acid).

The idea is to change the Ph to be more acidic. Ideal way is to take it at the same time as your kratom (you want it in the stomach simultaneously).

I don't think the pH is really an issue. I think we just go through fluctuations plus the 20-40 different alkaloids at play in Kratom. I do agree. I miss the days before they shut down the world and I lost my physical therapy routine which led to further injuries and issues. For some reason it's more difficult to keep the 3.5 gram doses 3x a day without the rest of the routine. Again this leads to the point of Kratom being just a tool (for us chronic pain people), without being in a hellish addiction. Tangent, I know, but I proverbially laugh when these people pine on about Kratom withdrawal being so horrible! "I used to take 10 mgs of Oxycodone a day for one year and 40 grams of Kratom and it was so much worse!" lol

Anyway, I'm wondering how pH would come into play... Stomach Acid is about as low as it goes. Is there enough to drop that pH a significant amount?

Edit: Alkaloid profiles, timing, stomach contents, prior doses, antagonists etc... I've had the the add on dose work maybe 20 percent of the time. MAYBE! Usually it's nothing better. Maybe some wobbles, but new people need to listen to this guy!!! If your sweet spot is 4 grams, you might be able to get a .5-1 in there if it's your only dose of that day within 30 minutes. If you dump on 2 an hour later it's usually a regrettable decision that just boosts tolerance, makes you feel worse, and makes next dose less effective.

[Kelleytoons]

Ph is one of the things that's actually been studied about kratom (there are damn few things that have been). A high PH definitely extracts more of the mit than a neutral or lower one - what happens after that is extracted from the powder/leaf as it hits your system is totally unknown (the studies only studied the "brewing" of the powder in various substances. For those interested, 100% alcohol was the best, around 60% extracted. Plain water only around 30% is available, although you can add another 8% with citric acid).

I have tried taking kratom with vodka - it's actually the ONLY other way (other than capsules) I can stomach the stuff. And, yes, it's quite a boost - can make even so-so leaf into fire - but most folks don't want/need three or four shots of vodka each and every day (and even then we're only talking around 40% alcohol - 80 proof vodka is about all anyone can and should try).

[Clever Coyote]

Ph is one of the things that's actually been studied about kratom (there are damn few things that have been). A high PH definitely extracts more of the mit than a neutral or lower one - what happens after that is extracted from the powder/leaf as it hits your system is totally unknown (the studies only studied the "brewing" of the powder in various substances. For those interested, 100% alcohol was the best, around 60% extracted. Plain water only around 30% is available, although you can add another 8% with citric acid).

I have tried taking kratom with vodka - it's actually the ONLY other way (other than capsules) I can stomach the stuff. And, yes, it's quite a boost - can make even so-so leaf into fire - but most folks don't want/need three or four shots of vodka each and every day (and even then we're only talking around 40% alcohol - 80 proof vodka is about all anyone can and should try).

This entire conversation (probably) explains why the effects that I got in the beginning stopped for me. And also why the days I drank GF juice seemed better. Now, about the vodka though......how in the world could you extrapolate the "vodka effects" from the "Kratom affects"? I ask because 3-4 shots of vodka ALWAYS puts a smile on my face, lol.

I have new leaf on the way (from yet another vendor) and I'm gonna try and lower my amounts---fingers crossed !

[Kelleytoons]

I don't mean to suggest three or four vodka shots per dose - I was only doing ONE shot at a time - only that if you dosed three or four times it could add up <g>.

Also, as a very general rule folks have advised against using alcohol with kratom. Not only are the effects, as you note, difficult to separate, but it's very similar to the advice of using ANY such powerful drug with alcohol (although in the case of kratom it's not *quite* as bad as, say, a scripted opioid, where the breathing suppression effect is both real and exacerbated by alcoholic addition. The majority of overdose deaths are caused by the inability to breathe).

[IdiopathicPain247]

I have tried the "Red Bubble" method and it seems to make the dose more potent. I am doing this for my night time dose before sleeping. Mixing the dose with enough Apple Cider Vinegar and letting it sit for 10 minutes or so. That and the very hot water extracts the Mitragyna / Alkaloids also...right?

[boureka]

I have tried the "Red Bubble" method and it seems to make the dose more potent. I am doing this for my night time dose before sleeping. Mixing the dose with enough Apple Cider Vinegar and letting it sit for 10 minutes or so. That and the very hot water extracts the Mitragyna / Alkaloids also...right?

Yes, to the best of our knowledge,yes

[Loveandpeace]

I have tried the "Red Bubble" method and it seems to make the dose more potent. I am doing this for my night time dose before sleeping. Mixing the dose with enough Apple Cider Vinegar and letting it sit for 10 minutes or so. That and the very hot water extracts the Mitragyna / Alkaloids also...right?

You are correct.

However - I am partial to the morning. This method allows me to use 3g as my first burn. My usual dose is 4.5g. The timing of a smaller, 'concentrated' dose gives me more flexibility throughout the day to keep my weekly average down. After sleep is the trick to a rich, complicated burn and the key to the entire rest of the days doses.

I split 3g between 2 absolute fire bags
add lemon - let sit
add boiling water - let sit
freeze hard (3-4 hours)
defrost - let sit
consume and smile

I think you are getting the hang of the site pretty well. I promise that you will be under 18gpd.

[boureka]

I don't use boiling water. Just really hot water.

[IdiopathicPain247]

I have tried the "Red Bubble" method and it seems to make the dose more potent. I am doing this for my night time dose before sleeping. Mixing the dose with enough Apple Cider Vinegar and letting it sit for 10 minutes or so. That and the very hot water extracts the Mitragyna / Alkaloids also...right?

You are correct.

However - I am partial to the morning. This method allows me to use 3g as my first burn. My usual dose is 4.5g. The timing of a smaller, 'concentrated' dose gives me more flexibility throughout the day to keep my weekly average down. After sleep is the trick to a rich, complicated burn and the key to the entire rest of the days doses.

I split 3g between 2 absolute fire bags
add lemon - let sit
add boiling water - let sit
freeze hard (3-4 hours)
defrost - let sit
consume and smile

I think you are getting the hang of the site pretty well. I promise that you will be under 18gpd.

By using this method and buying enough different batches I can rotate doses up to about 5 days. I have reduced down to 11 gpd. This site made it happen. I feel like I will even go lower as I collect the "good stuff". I just finished my first trade. It was from GoNzO87. Worked great. Last night I tried his Red Zen. I loved it!!

[Nelson Baboon]

i had gotten my burns down to 1.5 - 2g, and i was curious to experiment, since for me, i find that the legs seem considerably shorter at low doses.

I tried moving up to 3g yesterday, but yeah - it's pretty amazing. Whatever it is that i love about kratom's effects - they are there from 1.5 to 2g (i tried experimenting briefly with 1g and that didn't seem promising, but will try that again). 3g really wasn't any better than 2 or 1.5. did it last longer? inconclusive.

i have never tried any kind of citrus as a potentiator. i get pretty crazy about avoiding sugar, and i don't want to get in the habit of drinking fruit juices. Does a small dab of lemon juice work? how much does one need? (i seem to be very resistant to potentiators - have tried adamatine and bso, and (despite actually liking the taste of the bso) just don't find that they make a difference for me.

[boureka]

Yes lemon juice. Also apple cider vinegar. Both are low sugar compared to grapefruit juice. How much lemon juice? The red bubble recipe I found says to use equal amounts of lemon juice and water so you can use that as a guide. But whatever you do, I'd dilute it if you want to hold onto you tooth enamel.

[Nelson Baboon]

Yes lemon juice. Also apple cider vinegar. Both are low sugar compared to grapefruit juice. How much lemon juice? The red bubble recipe I found says to use equal amounts of lemon juice and water so you can use that as a guide. But whatever you do, I'd dilute it if you want to hold onto you tooth enamel.

i just mix in water and drink (with some monkfruit extract) - the above doesn't tell me much about how much lemon juice, or apple cider vinegar, for that matter. given that i have apple cider vinegar that seems worthy of a trial, but like - if i'm using 2g of kratom, how much apple cider vinegar? (maybe in teaspoons?)

[boureka]

I can tell you that Kats botanicals red bubble recipe says lemon juice works best..but lime juice, pickle juice, any vinegar all work. Kats recommends that for every teaspoon of kràtom, use a teaspoon of lemon juice. Keep in mind that this is one recipe and it's for red bubble tea...but this should give you a rough idea.