Beginner trying to find an effective dose

Post by **IdiopathicPain247** » Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:48 am

Ass my illness becomes worse, I am right now using 3gr 3 times a day and 5.5gr at night. All spaced at least 5 hours apart. It feels like I still need to be increasing until I find my "Sweetspot/effective dose that brings significant relief". I started with 1.5- gr, and 2-3gr at night. I use all different batches and "colors" I have 11 batches. I use white first then a red to help nap, green at 5p, and then a red at 2am. Either I need a break to reset, or I increase the dose again by 1gr each time I take it.? I have read about people doing it both ways. My illness might need a higher does. I am 71 and have something very similar to fibromyalgia. ( Fibromyalgia is a chronic (long-lasting) disorder that causes pain and tenderness throughout the body, as well as fatigue and trouble sleeping. Scientists do not fully understand what causes it, but people with the disorder have a heightened sensitivity to pain.)
It might be best to lower my dose, as less is more ).? What if my body needs a bigger dose to help manage my pain?

My batches should be good stuff. Otie Green Drago, ANA Bali Bali Red, Arora Horned White, all the Maeng Da's, and Super Indo's.

My stools are becoming pretty hard and bit hard to pass. I have developed light bleeding...hemorrhoids'.

Post by **xymoriintus** » Wed Jul 19, 2023 7:43 am

Make sure you're drinking PLENTY OF WATER!!!

Post by **IdiopathicPain247** » Wed Jul 19, 2023 7:59 am

xymoriintus wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 7:43 am Make sure you're drinking PLENTY OF WATER!!!

Does tea and decaf coffee count?

Post by **boureka** » Wed Jul 19, 2023 10:16 am

Tea and decaf don't count at all. They further dehydrate you, unfortunately.

Post by **boureka** » Wed Jul 19, 2023 10:26 am

First of all let me say, I'm so sorry for what you're going through. Unfortunately, you can't have a pain specialist working with you titrating your kratom doses so you'll have to do it on your own. And also unfortunately, raising the dose will not necessarily give you more pain relief. Kratom is not like any other substance. I can't speak to a solution for you but I can speak to how raising the dose will not be the answer. Did you ever do any house painting? If you put the paint on too thickly, it won't cover the wall more quickly or effectively. It'll just make a mess. Kratom is a little like that. And it's a fickle friend..a dose may hit on Monday but not on Tuesday or Wednesday. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Post by **Kelleytoons** » Wed Jul 19, 2023 4:14 pm

We can't say this enough - if 2-3 grams doesn't work, more won't either (it will work even less). If you can't get relief at that recommended dose, either lower it or try another batch (it just ain't for you, then).

I'm a bit older than you but my pain is different, as is everyone's. But, truly, no matter the quality of the kratom you're taking, if it doesn't hit for you it's most likely not the right batch. I buy from ALL the top vendors, such as Denette and TFH, and trust me, everything they sell is primo. But some batches just don't work for me - that's the nature of the beast. You MUST try different vendors and different batches until you find something that works (and even then you must rotate your batches - no more than once every three days for the same one).

It's a process. It may take a month or two to get the right routine, but it WILL happen if you journal (or at least mark you bags) AND make sure your routine is correct (empty stomach, good BMs every day, eat some fatty food about 20 minutes after your dose).

Post by **MetalMamaRocks** » Wed Jul 19, 2023 7:03 pm

As others have said, drink plenty of water and dose on an empty stomach. Try mixing it with orange juice. A lot of people swear by this method. The citric acid works as a potentiator.

Also, stay ahead of constipation. It can get pretty bad when first starting out. Keep a bottle of milk of magnesia around for emergencies, and if you don't "go" after 2 or 3 days, take a dose. I've seen people end up in the emergency room with kratom constipation because they ignored it for too long.

Post by **BallzDeep9** » Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:47 am

IdiopathicPain247 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:48 am As my illness becomes worse, I am right now using 3gr 3 times a day and 5.5gr at night. All spaced at least 5 hours apart. It feels like I still need to be increasing

In addition to what fellow senior Kelley is saying, ( Less is more = More works even less!),

Kratom is... a stimulant - NOT a sedative - And, you need your sleep at night!!

With illness ? 8 full hours of good SLEEP is needed - Not getting up doing kratom at night ? Sure... Kratom feels GREAT... but your body (And your receptors!) work BEST with a good 12 hours to recover. Stuffing your receptors FULL of kratom 24/7... you'll quickly go from "Honeymoon Effect" to... the good ole' "Kratom Not Working" anymore...

There are MANY good Sleep Aids out there...

#1 get some Gabapentin. Works for occasional RLS... Get some CBD. isolate - Promotes good sleep. From Amazon buy... Valerian Root. and Melatonin. and some Magnesium. NOW the trick is, Rotate 'em. Take 'em in combo. Like, try ( 1-Melatonin 1-CBD with 1-Ibuprofen ) half hour before bedtime... you won't NEED any kratom at night, because you'll be sleeping!!!

LOOK - We in the kratom "business" NOW have a "problem" with Kratom Abusers - getting very SICK from too much kratom, they go online, Facebook, Reddit, etc and - spread Negative FUD about Kratom... when we know Kratom is GREAT!! - but some "people" ?

Go to Reddit r/QuittingKratom & read the horror stories... those who did More and More and More... 20, 30, 60, gpd ?? Noooo! Good Luck & keep us posted!

Post by **boureka** » Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:41 am

BallzDeep9 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:47 am
IdiopathicPain247 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 6:48 am As my illness becomes worse, I am right now using 3gr 3 times a day and 5.5gr at night. All spaced at least 5 hours apart. It feels like I still need to be increasing
In addition to what fellow senior Kelley is saying, ( Less is more = More works even less!), Kratom is... a stimulant - NOT a sedative - And, you need your sleep at night!!

With illness ? 8 full hours of good SLEEP is needed - Not getting up doing kratom at night ? Sure... Kratom feels GREAT... but your body (And your receptors!) work BEST with a good 12 hours to recover. Stuffing your receptors FULL of kratom 24/7... you'll quickly go from "Honeymoon Effect" to... the good ole' "Kratom Not Working" anymore...

There are MANY good Sleep Aids out there... #1 get some Gabapentin. Works for occasional RLS... Get some CBD. isolate - Promotes good sleep. From Amazon buy... Valerian Root. and Melatonin. and some Magnesium. NOW the trick is, Rotate 'em. Take 'em in combo. Like, try ( 1-Melatonin 1-CBD with 1-Ibuprofen ) half hour before bedtime... you won't NEED any kratom at night, because you'll be sleeping!!!

LOOK - We in the kratom "business" NOW have a "problem" with Kratom Abusers - getting very SICK from too much kratom, they go online, Facebook, Reddit, etc and - spread Negative FUD about Kratom... when we know Kratom is GREAT!! - but some "people" ? Go to Reddit r/QuittingKratom & read the horror stories... those who did More and More and More... 20, 30, 60, gpd ?? Noooo! Good Luck & keep us posted!

Ballz, are you recommending 12 hours or more between doses?

Post by **IdiopathicPain247** » Thu Jul 20, 2023 8:56 am

Thank you all for the interest and care you have shown. THAT is very important in my making decisions, and some can become critical, especially at 71. I am new to this but I really think I need it, because of the acute idiopathic neuropathy. I really need to tapper off Gabapentin, Clonazepam, and Citalopram, because THEY are the dangerous drugs. This is my second day on a 14 gpd. Yesterday went good.

I just ordered 100 gr's from ANA to keep up with the three day rotation of batches. I am drinking water instead of coffee and tea now so I hope I get a little easier BM. This probably the best option for me because of the severity of the pain 24/7 now/for awhile. Finding the batches that work will take awhile, and I don't have a whole lot of money. This going to take awhile to learn about and find the best Kratom. Every reply has been very helpful in influencing my decisions.

Post by **boureka** » Thu Jul 20, 2023 9:01 am

You might try the bubble tea method of taking your kratom which Ballz introduced me to. If you can't find the recipe here, lmk and I'll put it in the thread. The idea is to make the kràtom you take more bioavailable and so, hit better while not climbing the dosage ladder.

Post by **BallzDeep9** » Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:02 pm

boureka wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 5:41 am Ballz, are you recommending 12 hours or more between doses?

NO, just one 12+ hour break every night.. During the day, "doses" ( servings ) work best on empty stomach. I have my #1 serving, first thing each morning. Have breakfast an hour later.

IMHO "Sedation" is a side-effect of too much kratom.. NOT a sleep aid, it's a mild stimulant. So "Bedtime Dose" is one of those MYTHS about kratom, that gets perpetuated online ??

Like the MYTH about "Strains" and many others... Kratom is kratom. It's great but it's not a solution to every problem.. It's not the strongest pain reliever.

Due to the alkaloid profile, (mµ receptor agonist VS antagonists ) there is a "Ceiling Effect" built in so... taking More = gives Less effects. After a certain point --> the ceiling. That's somewhere as low as 5 gpd (grams per day) up to maybe 15 ? People with a high opioid Tolerance, are already at a disadvantage anyway. So it's all based on Tolerance.

Pain Management gets complicated, and people are different,

and strong pain meds are now illegal or hard to get... Kratom isn't AS strong as Oxycodone, but kratom may be the ONLY think legally available.. and it's cheap! So - becomes an issue of managing pain, day to day, while staying healthy eating good food & getting enough good sleep. Anything you can do, to maximize the effectiveness of kratom & make it work better... Optimize your kratom. Less is More. (Grams per Day), So... don't use kratom at night!!

Rotate other things: Tylenol, Ibuprofen, along with melatonin, valerian, CBD and other sleep aids.

One BIG suggestion for our friend IdeopathicPain is -- Prune Juice.

Yep. Buy a jug of that prune juice. All natural laxative! Works wonders for moving your bowels... For me, just One Half a cup daily. I blend with apple juice & maybe some protein powder and milk. Others may need more or less...

Post by **Loveandpeace** » Thu Jul 20, 2023 12:38 pm

Hi Idiopathic,

Welcome to the fold (folds... for the seniors

). You have a very common problem that everyone on this board forgets. You are dosing too high, too often with low-mid grade leaf.

Every single newbie to MM has this problem! Once you get TP status and find 3 vendors (TFH, D615, LSMS...) to rotate - dosing and euphoria balance themselves.

Ultimately, finding your sweet spot depends greatly on using quality and consistent plant matter. You will be posting a different tune in 8 weeks.

Post by **boureka** » Thu Jul 20, 2023 3:40 pm

[quote=BallzDeep9 post_id=115084

IMHO "Sedation" is a side-effect of too much kratom.. NOT a sleep aid, it's a mild stimulant. So "Bedtime Dose" is one of those MYTHS about kratom, that gets perpetuated online ??

.
[/quote]
WOW...a LOT of us use kràtom for sleep and relaxation, for anxiolytic restfulness. I almost never use it for its stimulant properties. That's just a bonus when it comes.

Post by **Kelleytoons** » Thu Jul 20, 2023 3:49 pm

Yeah, this is one of my MAJOR disagreements with Mr. B.

I use nighttime kratom ALL the time - every single night - for pain relief that lets me sleep. Now - I have dialed in the dose and the batch (always a red but not ALL reds work for me) and I take it about 90 minutes before I actually sleep, but without it the pain levels just don't allow me a good night's sleep.

II understand his theory - if you ARE going to take a long break, the 12 hours at night seems like a good time. But that's for folks not in constant pain - as Mr. B ages he'll discover this. For sure us old people need help that cannot be gotten any other way (well, other opioids - for years I used script ones but no longer).

I file this under the "kratom works so differently for so many people it's not a hard/fast rule about nighttime use".

Post by **IdiopathicPain247** » Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:09 pm

Update: Today I went to suggested sites, almost all small vendors and bought enough to have a rotation of quality batches. Soon I will be getting the dose right. I know less is more and that is the way I aim to dose. For now I will rotate with mediocre stuff and do my best until the better stuff arrives.

Post by **OriginalLHB** » Thu Jul 20, 2023 8:52 pm

Kelleytoons wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 3:49 pm Yeah, this is one of my MAJOR disagreements with Mr. B.

I use nighttime kratom ALL the time - every single night - for pain relief that lets me sleep. Now - I have dialed in the dose and the batch (always a red but not ALL reds work for me) and I take it about 90 minutes before I actually sleep, but without it the pain levels just don't allow me a good night's sleep.

II understand his theory - if you ARE going to take a long break, the 12 hours at night seems like a good time. But that's for folks not in constant pain - as Mr. B ages he'll discover this. For sure us old people need help that cannot be gotten any other way (well, other opioids - for years I used script ones but no longer).

I file this under the "kratom works so differently for so many people it's not a hard/fast rule about nighttime use".

My experience is almost perfectly aligned with that of Kelleytoons, and not that of Mr. B.

While I am not as old as Kelleytoons, I am old enough to be applying for Medicare and have chronic, disabling pain 24/7. I'm not going to suffer for 12 hours every night in the interest of reducing "tolerance" by a few degrees. I have been taking the same 2.5 to 3 gram dose 5 times a day for about a year, with no loss in efficacy.

And if you don't think that kratom helps with sleep and evening anxiety, you should try some Nodfather Red Nod 23 or Denette Red Berang, et al. As somebody who is at the tail end of a loong benzo taper, I have no idea how I would have made it through the evening anxiety and insomnia without great, slow Reds such as these.

Post by **Loveandpeace** » Thu Jul 20, 2023 9:00 pm

IdiopathicPain247 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 6:09 pm Update: Today I went to suggested sites, almost all small vendors and bought enough to have a rotation of quality batches. Soon I will be getting the dose right. I know less is more and that is the way I aim to dose. For now I will rotate with mediocre stuff and do my best until the better stuff arrives.

Great move friend,

Let's be honest - while searching for that sweet spot (erm..finding the hole), the practice is better than the results

Good luck--

Pro tip: use your best and THEN a little mediocre as a bumper, if you will.

Post by **boureka** » Thu Jul 20, 2023 9:21 pm

Respectfully, I would say to avoid bumping unless it's this way: go lower and bump with the remainder of your dose. And you can do that with your mediocre kratom. You've really got to try to keep your gpd down as much as possible.

Post by **Loveandpeace** » Thu Jul 20, 2023 11:08 pm

boureka wrote: ↑Thu Jul 20, 2023 9:21 pm Respectfully, I would say to avoid bumping unless it's this way: go lower and bump with the remainder of your dose. And you can do that with your mediocre kratom. You've really got to try to keep your gpd down as much as possible.

Yes and yes...

You are correct, I got ahead of myself...

I have never gotten a 'respectfully' before... I'm thinking can they see my overflowing grey chest hair?

Post by **StarfishArtifice** » Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:28 pm

boureka wrote: ↑Wed Jul 19, 2023 10:16 am Tea and decaf don't count at all. They further dehydrate you, unfortunately.

I think this is incorrect, the idea caffeine is a diuretic is outdated, here's one link: https://www.rd.com/article/is-coffee-a-diuretic/

So it hydrates you worse than water, but still hydrates. Plus he said decaf coffee.

If one was adding sugar/syrups though, that's bad for hydration and I would suggest stopping or switching to artificial.

Post by **boureka** » Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:38 pm

I believe caffeine increases urine output. I would think a tall glass of coffee might hydrate you some but I'm not sure how much you can count your coffee towards hydration. Good question. And I didn't pay attention to the decaf part. Good pick up

Post by **MetalMamaRocks** » Fri Jul 21, 2023 6:06 pm

boureka wrote: ↑Fri Jul 21, 2023 4:38 pm I believe caffeine increases urine output. I would think a tall glass of coffee might hydrate you some but I'm not sure how much you can count your coffee towards hydration. Good question. And I didn't pay attention to the decaf part. Good pick up

I read recently that you can count 50% towards your intake. For instance, if you drink 12 oz coffee, count 6 oz towards your daily fluids.

This seems pretty reasonable.

Post by **IdiopathicPain247** » Sat Jul 22, 2023 7:18 am

I think I will drink decaf AND drink straight water ( well water ), ands LOTS. I have been and the results have been MUCH better. I ordered from ANA, Oties, WestKoast, and Oties ( which pretty close to where I live ). 10 new batches of all the "kinds" ( colors ). I read reviews for each batch either here, or vendor ( and users ) review it. So, I am looking forward to pairing down my daily intake. Which for now is 13 gpd and after it will be less than 10 gpd. I might try going 12 hrs in between does, but I don't know which part of the day I will be strongest have less trouble with pain. Kratom really has helped with the pain. It is amazing stuff. I want it to work, and I do not want to get strung out on it. I think I have a somewhat addictive need in me. It started early with alcohol, ( I was raised near San Francisco

). I have used Pot for about 40 years, used psychedelics a bunch, mainly alcohol and Pot until I was about 55. I have a nervous breakdown after a couple of traumatic events happened. I lost it. I was put on some anti-depressant that made me feel worse, then another one that didn't work, and I settled on Citalopram, and Clonazepam. Whith about a year I started having intense stomach problems. The Doc doubled my Citalopram 40mg's and put me on Xanax ( Alprazolam ). I have weaned off the most of the Benzos. I believe with a lot of anecdotal evidence that the RX meds contributed ( a lot ) to neuropathy happening to this meat package.

Post by **IdiopathicPain247** » Sat Jul 22, 2023 7:32 am

Oh one other thing I wanted to to say. You know the plastic scoopers they tell you is a gram? I used that to measure my dose for 2 months. When I used a scale I learned that those scoops were average in .6 of a gr. So I started weighing my dose and that is when I found this site and saw many people using a medium does 2-3 gr. a time. I now I am playing with fire a bit, but at my age and the pain makes it worth it. It will be different in 6 months I am sure. If I am still amongst the living.

Post by **Kelleytoons** » Sat Jul 22, 2023 7:48 am

You absolutely HAVE to weight your dose - making capsules I quickly found that due to the grind some batches I could fit .5 gram in a capsule easily, but others were nearly twice as fluffy (and thus half the amount). So now I even weight the capsules I take (accounting for the capsule weight).

But DO be careful about your dose. It's easy to get into the "well, if 3 grams works, 4 will be even better". We will keep repeating it like a mantra - less is more, less is more. Taking more will (often) mean the dose won't hit and, worse, repeating this will screw up your tolerance (in that case you need to drop WAY back. Or take a break. And for some of us a break isn't that easy).

Post by **Nelson Baboon** » Sun Jul 23, 2023 10:17 am

Kelleytoons wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 7:48 am You absolutely HAVE to weight your dose - making capsules I quickly found that due to the grind some batches I could fit .5 gram in a capsule easily, but others were nearly twice as fluffy (and thus half the amount). So now I even weight the capsules I take (accounting for the capsule weight).

But DO be careful about your dose. It's easy to get into the "well, if 3 grams works, 4 will be even better". We will keep repeating it like a mantra - less is more, less is more. Taking more will (often) mean the dose won't hit and, worse, repeating this will screw up your tolerance (in that case you need to drop WAY back. Or take a break. And for some of us a break isn't that easy).

i've wondered about whether indeed a large dose can cause the kratom not to hit. has this been verified, or does it just seem to happen occasionally, and possibly be attributable to other factors? I'm curious because I've never experienced it. I have successfully reduced my doses to 1.5g - 2g, but i have just found that larger doses don't work better, other than it does seem to me that the effects don't last as long with smaller doses.

Post by **boureka** » Sun Jul 23, 2023 10:26 am

I've had both experiences: larger doses feeling like "too much" and larger doses feeling like nothing at all. One thing is consistent for me tho. Climbing the dosage ladder led to nothing hitting. So the only time I've experienced the "too much" syndrome was when my dose was small to begin with. In other words, a one time thing..like if my dose was 2 gms and I took more. (Altho if I consistently did this, eventually nothing would hit.) Or when I had a batch that I wondered if it was spiked

Post by **BallzDeep9** » Sun Jul 23, 2023 3:32 pm

boureka wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 10:26 am One thing is consistent for me tho. Climbing the dosage ladder led to nothing hitting ...

yeah In my experience, first sign your serving is "Too Much" is when effects seem to go away quickly. Good kratom's Peak effects last, say, 1+ hours

with half life around 4 hours ? So when effects are mild & only last 30 min then gone... we're heading down the road to Tolerance problems ??

Excess consumption, or Kratom Abuse, just seems SO damn common (reading Social Media ?) these days... Many doing way too much & then complain about not hitting, SO they do More and make the problem even worse... Keep going in that direction ?? IS how some wind up choking down 50, 80+ gpd... Then of course blame Kratom for all their problems & show up on Reddit : r/AbusingKratom LOL it's called r/Quitting - and getting advice to spend $ Money $ on a Recovery clinic given Suboxone to "cure their Kratom Addiction"

When the WHOLE problem, started with doing too much/ doing More/ taking more frequent/ Not using a scale/ Not keeping track, just random spoon fulls... etc.

Kratom is kratom. IMO starts with accepting it's limits... Not the strongest Pain Relief. It has good relief, but respect the Ceiling Effect.

and, Side Effects... Every substance, every drug, every herb, HAS negative side effects for over consumption. Eat too much candy or ice cream ? You feel sick. It's definitely possible to vomit, throw up, excess kratom BUT - I think our systems get used to it, so... Side Effects --> Sedation. Yes. Feeling drowsy, constipated, foggy... then, Anhedonia. Night sweats, RLS and muscle spasms, Liver and thyroid problems, even Hair Loss and anorexia.

Some reasons for it's Ceiling Effect (and others) come from the "Alkaloid Profile". We know for a FACT = 1 or more antagonist alkaloids ( Isorhynchophylline,), present in tiny trace amounts BUT when large servings are taken ? At that point, you're getting enough antagonist to wipe out good effects of the agonist ( Mitragynine,). Other alkaloids, including Mitraphylline, Speciogynine, Speciociliatine, and Paynantheine - are not well studied & have muscle relaxant properties.

Post by **IdiopathicPain247** » Sun Jul 23, 2023 8:42 pm

So my first batch arrives tomorrow from Okies. Then Tuesday 6 more batches. All from small vendors suggested on this web site. So far managing my pain is going well. When I take either of the good batches I have, like tonight I took 3gr of Green Dragon. It has hit and feels good...relieves the pain and makes me feel good. So my tolerance has something to do with the quality of the batch. If you use good Kratom more than about 10gpd tolerance is more likely.? Also taking 4-5 gr at night of Red Bali puts me to sleep
( insomnia because of pain ). It will be nice to rotate with good batches and trim the dosage. That Reddit crowd is too much for me.

Post by **IdiopathicPain247** » Thu Jul 27, 2023 9:52 am

All the batches have arrived and I am amazed at how good they are. I have dropped my gpd by over 4 gpd. Taking less the 2 gr and sometimes adding a gram anhour or so later is enough. Much more than that it feels too powerful for me.. Weird. This is a whole new experience having "good" Kratom. It is because of DoubleM that I can use Kratom to really manage my neuropathy. Took 3.8 gr of Oties Super Red Maeng Da last night at 2 am ( lots of pain ) Slept great for 3 1/2 hours! Woke up refreshed.
Trying 2.8 gr of Oties White Jongkong this morning. Relaxed and alert. No tolerance problems at all.

Post by **boureka** » Thu Jul 27, 2023 10:58 am

This is great. I find that novelty is almost as important as quality (hence the need to rotate doses) And right now you have both. Maybe try to lower even a little more if you can. You want to use the minimal amount that you can get by with. Good luck!

Post by **IdiopathicPain247** » Sat Jul 29, 2023 10:05 am

For this good Kratom to have an effective dose I am needing 3gr doses. My pain is 7-8 24/7 if not treated. The nerve damage is progressive and now parts of my body are really hard to deal with. I tried a much smaller dose and it didn't work. I tied a smaller dose and taking a little more after an hour. Not much effect. I am maybe going to need this amount ...then occasionally drop down when I have the health to do so. 3gr hits enough to be effective to "relieve" my symptoms but not erase them. I don't think that being addicted to Kratom is a bad thing if the amount works for you and you don't need more/tolerance issues. I do understand the need to eat heathy and enough fiber and taking magnesium to keep you regular.

Post by **IdiopathicPain247** » Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:00 am

The 18 gpd on was on was to much so I am decreased to 11 gpd. It is working. I will keep it here for awhile. I don't think I am going to increase the dose if I have tolerance issues. I will drop down further, until I can manage a complete break for awhile. We'll see.

Post by **Kelleytoons** » Sat Aug 05, 2023 3:23 pm

11 gpd is not bad at all. If you do try going lower (and I would if I were you) I'd also try, at the same time, a little Agmatine. While it's early days I have been experimenting with adding it to my doses and it does seem to be an effective potentiator (sometimes TOO effective - I took 2.5 grams of a Denette yellow today that I knew was good, along with 500mg of Agmatine, and I was so wobbly I was worried about driving. Took away every ache and pain I had, though. Now - how much of this is due to the Agmatine and how much to that batch is a question that I can never answer, but it's worth a try on your end).

Post by **boureka** » Sat Aug 05, 2023 7:30 pm

Kelleytoons wrote: ↑Sat Aug 05, 2023 3:23 pm 11 gpd is not bad at all. If you do try going lower (and I would if I were you) I'd also try, at the same time, a little Agmatine. While it's early days I have been experimenting with adding it to my doses and it does seem to be an effective potentiator (sometimes TOO effective - I took 2.5 grams of a Denette yellow today that I knew was good, along with 500mg of Agmatine, and I was so wobbly I was worried about driving. Took away every ache and pain I had, though. Now - how much of this is due to the Agmatine and how much to that batch is a question that I can never answer, but it's worth a try on your end).

Kelley, the agmatine is reported to enhance the analgesic properties of kratom but dampen the euphoric lift. Was that your experience?

Post by **Kelleytoons** » Sat Aug 05, 2023 7:47 pm

No, not at all. I think it definitely enhances the good "feels" - right now I'm on some Denette Yellow Midnight and I could not feel higher than if I had taken some grass (unfortunately illegal in this state).

I suspect, as with all things kratom, this is a VERY individual thing you need to determine for yourself. I just know, based on the few tests I've tried so far, that I don't want to dose without it (and it's not that much - just one capsule but I misspoke because it's 500mg per capsule. I think I wrote 100). Now, none of what I've taken so far has been red. With a good nighttime red I will hope (please!) that it enhances the sedative effects. But for the whites, greens and yellows I've used it with it is as euphoric as anything I've had.

But, again - try it yourself. The bottle I bought (from Amazon) cost around 10 bucks and has enough to last me more than a month (assuming I take just one capsule each time I dose). That's a small amount for experimentation (perhaps I'll find it works better with some than with others - again, however, I can't make a real scientific test unless I wait about a month because that's how long I go between dosing with the same batch. And I would have to make notes about what worked and what didn't. And... hell, too much work for me and life's too short :>).

Post by **IdiopathicPain247** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:20 am

I have some Agmatine Sulfate that is powder. I will try a little with the whites and greens if the lower dose is ineffective. I have tried the Red Bubble method to kick start the dose, it does work. Like last night I took 4.92 gr of a new Red and it was good and very relaxing but I couldn't fall asleep. I sleep from about 10 to 2am fine...this as after that. I have a Red coming Monday. I am going to Red Bubble my night dose and see if that works. I am rotating now about every 4 days. I know that isn't very much when some old timers have a cellar full to choose from.

Post by **boureka** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:58 am

IdiopathicPain247 wrote: ↑Sun Aug 06, 2023 7:20 am I have some Agmatine Sulfate that is powder. I will try a little with the whites and greens if the lower dose is ineffective. I have tried the Red Bubble method to kick start the dose, it does work. Like last night I took 4.92 gr of a new Red and it was good and very relaxing but I couldn't fall asleep. I sleep from about 10 to 2am fine...this as after that. I have a Red coming Monday. I am going to Red Bubble my night dose and see if that works. I am rotating now about every 4 days. I know that isn't very much when some old timers have a cellar full to choose from.

Why won't you be trying agmatine with your reds?

Post by **IdiopathicPain247** » Sun Aug 06, 2023 8:50 am

After researching it many sources say it isn't a good idea. They say it can keep the sedative effects of Kratom from being as active if your using Reds to sleep. A lot of people use varying amounts to have a wide array of effects. Some use it for depression/anxiety, and for work outs. Apparently people kinda OD on it. The feelings are similar to too much Kratom. Mix them together and you can have a very powerful mood change and energy boost. You know how some people test the boundaries. I have to take Reds to sleep. So no Agmatine at that time. I might test it during the day before I nap/rest. If it enhances the effect great. I will use it at night that way. It is like we are "meat package lab rats" doing our own direct research on how Kratom is to used in our modern societies. Good. Going natural remedies is a trend that is well worth getting involved in. I just have to watch the cost of it all.