Trouble with pain management

[IdiopathicPain247]

I have trouble with pain management. I am taking 4 g of super red Indo at 2:00 AM. It only lasts about two hours ( which is too short a time for me to get as much sleep as
I need ). I take three doses in the day. Each 2 g of different colors strains. Right now I only have White Maeng Da, Green Maeng Da, and Red Super Red Indo. I have Premium Red Bali, Horned White Vein, and Green Dragon coming soon. Do you think using different kinds during the day will help, or am I taking too much ( it has been 4 days on this
schedule )? Will another kind of Red at 2am be a better burn?

[Kelleytoons]

I would definitely lower that 4 gram dose - try it in half and see.

Nighttime doses of kratom are... tricky. I have a LOT of reds, from a LOT of different vendors and they are SLOWLY shaking out to what is really good at bedtime and what isn't. Most of TFH reds taken at bedtime don't work for me (they either keep me up or they don't provide the right relief) whereas taken any other time (or blended) they are wonderful. So I think you need to find the right one to take that helps you sleep, and it SHOULD work throughout the night.

(But, again, no more than 3 grams and even less is fine).

[starshine]

I have trouble with pain management. I am taking 4 g of super red Indo at 2:00 AM. It only lasts about two hours ( which is too short a time for me to get as much sleep as
I need ). I take three doses in the day. Each 2 g of different colors strains. Right now I only have White Maeng Da, Green Maeng Da, and Red Super Red Indo. I have Premium Red Bali, Horned White Vein, and Green Dragon coming soon. Do you think using different kinds during the day will help, or am I taking too much ( it has been 4 days on this
schedule )? Will another kind of Red at 2am be a better burn?

I'm guessing you're new/newish? first, read this thread. there's a lot there, so read it in sections if you have to. but you will learn a LOT about 'strains' vs. batches. so very important.

viewtopic.php?t=2931#p26623

'strain' names (red Indo, green md, etc.) are just labels and don't really mean anything. ideally reds should be slower and better pain management, greens nice energy with a good mood boost, and whites are typically 'faster.' but, all in all, they are just a label a vendor (or the supplier) puts on them. hopefully that vendor/supplier has some kind of consistent protocol for that labeling, but it's really all over the place. the ONLY way to see how a specific batch works is to try it. everyone is different. but, if lots of people are saying the same thing about a particular batch, chances are better that that is how you will respond to that batch as well. if lots of people are loving a certain batch, chances are very good that you will love it too. that's what I've found anyhow. remember... there is so much that plays into the effectiveness of a dose (time of day, what you've eaten, if you're hydrated... etc. etc.). even if something doesn't 'work' when trying it, it might next time. that's the hardest thing about kratom... it's so unpredictable! but, at the same time, a miracle. who are you ordering from? the vendor makes a BIG difference. and you'll find plenty of great vendors talked about in this forum.

what kind of pain are you trying to manage? I might be able to offer you some tips if I know what it is you're having to deal with... if it's something similar to what I'm dealing with. 4g does just happen to be my average dose. so you're probably not too far off there. I think it's average for a lot of people. a little less with really good stuff and a little more with dark reds. unfortunately... your going to have to do a lot of experimenting to see what works for you... especially the first couple of years. but you're in the best place to get off to the best start.

***hugs***

[starshine]

also... this is a great example. Kelley mentioned TFH reds don't work for him at night... and they work GREAT for me. unfortunately they are members only, but you may be able to try some from the trading post once you qualify to join it. he also mentioned taking less whereas I generally take more at night. usually about 5-6 grams of a good, dark, sleepy red or red blend. for me (and I think most people) less = more energy, less sleepy. with any new batch always start low... I usually start at around 3g and test it until I get the right amount that works best for me. but, if you are new, this is super important because you're more likely to not feel well if you overdo it even just a little bit. with time you probably won't be as sensitive to small amounts of difference.

[IdiopathicPain247]

@starshine

Thank You for the great info. Yes, I am just starting out. At 2 months I am learning a lot....HERE! I have peripheral neuropathy that started about 18 months ago. My pain level, if not treated with Med. Marijuana, Tramadol, and/or Gabapentin...and now Kratom is 7-8 24/7 and is especially bad when at rest or asleep. I have burning pain in my legs, abdomen, shoulders/arms and ears and sinuses. I am almost 71. I will be experimenting with all the different kinds and see how they work. I imagine it will take awhile to get use to it and find what works best for me. There are some reliable websites that offer many kinds. I have ordered a different white, green, and red that should be here soon.

[IdiopathicPain247]

Oh, I ordered from All Natural Artisan, Kratora, and Oties. I looked up what was suggested as good batch that others here liked a lot.

[starshine]

that sounds like a good start. I haven't tried the first two, but I've heard good things. isn't kratora a big company with really expensive prices? I seem to remember another friend starting with them. and she had good luck with them. altho, in the beginning, pretty much anything will seem good lol. I personally don't like to spend more than $100 a key. most of the product I buy is just under that. thank you thank you small vendors. I've had really good luck with Otie's in the past. their super red md and super green md worked really well for me, and I've heard good things about many others. Adam and Becca are great. that's another bonus of kratom... the community. in general you'll find a bunch of very nice and helpful new friends and a bonus with small vendors is that you can get to know them too

my number one right now is DTE (Down to Earth). I'm a little over four years in and have the tolerance you'd expect for someone who has taken 4g doses several times a day, every day, since starting. and Drew's leaf works amazing for me. almost every. single. batch. at lower doses and his customer service is unrivaled. I also love Denette and TFH... but you'll have to stick around to see when you might be able to get memberships for those two. memberships aren't to exclude people... well, technically yes they are lol... but not like that. it's to help them be able to serve their customers best by not having to settle for subpar leaf in order to meet demand. and it also helps keep them safe from the random person screwing them over or causing them to lose payment options.

anyhow... I was technically diagnosed with 'fibro' six years ago. altho I honestly feel that's an umbrella diagnosis they throw at anything they have no clue. I asked my doctor one time how many of her patients have 'fibro' and she told me... get this... at least FIFTY percent that doesn't even seem statically possible. they threw a few things at it... cymbalta, gabapentin, etc. and they worked. a little. but the side effects were not acceptable to me. I was honestly considering that I couldn't go on like that anymore similar to you... 24/7 full body pain (still not one day pain free in over six years but it's much more manageable now), terrible fatigue, dropping things, sensitivity to heat, cold, and sounds, plus others. I honestly think it's something neurological too... body parts fall asleep at night, or even randomly during the day, too. boy does that hurt. restless legs. I've thought about going to a neurologist, but then I think why? they'll just want to give me some kind of medicine that I don't want to take anyhow. the more I learn, the more I honestly believe it's poison. and that their goal is to keep us sick I'm much much much better since quitting all big pharma and trying to find natural solutions. those first two years before kratom were a literal nightmare that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy (not that I have any enemies lol). enter miracle plant. and a whole world of community and help

there are three things that I feel help me most. 1) kratom. when I go way too long between doses, I get a not so friendly reminder of that two year nightmare. I won't ever go without it again. 2) magnesium. this helps with the bathroom troubles kratom can cause (my only side effect... that is very manageable). and helps with sleep. I take 2, 100mg, citrate capsules along with one, 500mg, chelated multi magnesium before bed. and 3) cbd/cbg/cbn. at first I didn't think cbd was helping... until I stopped taking it. it's a subtle effect but very real. it helps so much. but it can take a few weeks to get into your system and really start working. I absolutely love Lazarus Naturals' products. and they have a 60% off discount for veterans, disability, or low income. I take 100mg (2 droppers) of their 'sleep tincture' before bed (combined with the magnesium) and it's lights. out. I don't even get up to pee anymore! and I know those endocannabinoids are working their magic while I sleep and I'll be able to move the next day stairs used to terrify me... and we have a two story home but now I can usually tackle them ok... sometimes almost feeling normal!

oh, regarding sleep and kratom. that's a tricky one. I usually have the best luck with the darker red batches. some vendors will have pictures of the batches... I think DTE does, but I honestly haven't paid attention because I've been buying every batch at every drop since I discovered them lol. and taking a slightly higher dose. but, honestly, with the cbd and magnesium I think I could cut out my nighttime dose and be ok I'm planning on experimenting with that... because less is always best to keep kratom working better.

here are a couple of links if you want to try any of it. DTE does usually sell out quickly after he 'drops' new batches, but you can sign up for emails to notify you when the drops will be. and set an alarm lol.

DTE: (as of right now he has red md and gold kuat left from Wednesday's drop... you should try them... and start LOW )

https://dtebotanicals.com/shop-all-products/

Lazarus Naturals':

https://www.lazarusnaturals.com/sleep-c ... e#205=5490

magnesium multi:

Terranics Magnesium Complex 500mg, 120 Veg Capsules, 55mg of Elemental Magnesium per Capsule, Chelated for Better Absorption, Sleep, Muscle, Heart Health, Vegan, Non-GMO https://a.co/d/jbj7qZK

[starshine]

oh! one other thing lol. you mentioned you take blended doses. I highly recommend, with any new batch, to try it and experiment with it (dose amount) before blending it. this will help you get a feel for each batch and how they may work blended with one another... and sometimes they are perfectly amazing all on their own

[IdiopathicPain247]

@starshine
THANK YOU for all the info. You seem like you have a very similar "illness" to me. I am taking Magnesium twice a day. I have tried CBD and it didn't work for me, but trying it the way u suggested is something I might do. I already can feel the Kratom community. The small vendors, and sites like Oties really keep the prices down. The Kratom store in town sells 4oz for $45. That is twice what Oties has. Yes, Kratora is expensive...I don't think I can afford them. I am on a fixed income and retired. The cost of almost everything has doubled in the past couple years. The Kratom community on Reddit seem different than here. Many of the users are taking like 20 gr a day! They do post when a state is introducing legislation to ban Kratom. I would like to be able to help those states keep Kratom legal...but it looks like the near future is going to be a battle, unfortunately.

[JaxPharmacy2020]

I will second the recommendation for Oties

Reach out and email/PM/DM them and explain what your looking for and they WILL help as much as possible....also feel free to ask for a sample of sonething first...the will accommodate as much as they can.


Great people and great product, a great place to start or to end up....I value them and their dedication

[boureka]

Sorry if someone already mentioned this, I'd also highly recommend Danette who will take you if there's a slot. His stuff is well priced, excellent, and he sends the best samples. Don't save your samples, try them first in case you want to order something before it's gone. Some of my favorites from Danette are the batches he sent me samples of.

[SeventhHeaven]

Another excellent vendor is https://luckyherbals.com. Lucky's was a private vendor until recently.

They have a new batch coming toward the end of the month, hopefully they'll have Royal Bentley back in. Right now they do have Red Bali and Red Kapuas, the Red Kapuas is more of a slow night-time blend.

Since the dry season (which is when kratom is best) is still going, it might be best to wait for the next batch - it'll probably be excellent! They're calling it the "7/19/23" batch, but I don't know if that's when it'll be released or not - they're very stringent about getting the lab reports back first.

[herbalhippie]

@starshine

Thank You for the great info. Yes, I am just starting out. At 2 months I am learning a lot....HERE! I have peripheral neuropathy that started about 18 months ago. My pain level, if not treated with Med. Marijuana, Tramadol, and/or Gabapentin...and now Kratom is 7-8 24/7 and is especially bad when at rest or asleep. I have burning pain in my legs, abdomen, shoulders/arms and ears and sinuses. I am almost 71. I will be experimenting with all the different kinds and see how they work. I imagine it will take awhile to get use to it and find what works best for me. There are some reliable websites that offer many kinds. I have ordered a different white, green, and red that should be here soon.

Oh man, I was going to say that if you can find an herbal pain balm with both St John's wort and comfrey it would be great for nerve pain but you're riddled with it! Sorry to hear this.

I made and sent an herbal oil blend with comfrey, calendula, arnica, helichrysum, cottonwood and lots of St John's wort infused oils in it to a friend with a nerve pain issue and he says it works well for him. Nerve pain is hard to manage.

[BallzDeep9]

Oh, I ordered from All Natural Artisan, Kratora, and Oties. I looked up what was suggested as good batch that others here liked a lot.

OK, you and I have a lot in common... peripheral neuropathy (I'm borderline diabetic & have chronic vascular problem lower leg etc.) And we're even close in age! - But, sounds like your pain situation is way beyond mine & sorry to hear that. Anyway... You have all you need. Forget "Kratora" overpriced... but ANA has the strongest kratom products on the market.

Want the strongest pain relief ? You've already got the ANA account. Otie's is great, too, but ANA - is similar to TFH, in experience. Proven history 10+ years. And iirc he was even dabbling in extract back 7 years ago on Reddit. So... Go directly to the Premium Jungle Jade, a 20% full spectrum extract (which is 10X stronger than the "best" Plain Leaf powder sold by any vendor!) - it's reasonably priced... LINK ... One thing, Get a digital milligram scale, to use quality extracts accurately.

There you go. A 20% extract has 200mg Mitragynine per gram... Carefully weigh, the gram into 20 servings = 10mg each. Use 1 to 3 servings, along with, HALF serving of regular Plain Leaf.

This extract was dried with great care to preserve the wide range of alkaloids. Our Premium Jungle Jade Extract is a 100% Full Spectrum Free Base Kratom extract with a dark green tint. As a result, the end product is most comparable to a red or heavy green plain leaf .... This is the undisputed favorite of our heavy Red kratom lovers. The full spectrum hits the red vein kratom notes like no other extract we have ever seen

EDIT - I like what Starshine is saying about DTE - and also cannabinoids at night mainly CBD w/ magnesium, good for sleep. I still drink the ol' Prune Juice for breakfast of course

[MikeEdoessomething]

@starshine

Thank You for the great info. Yes, I am just starting out. At 2 months I am learning a lot....HERE! I have peripheral neuropathy that started about 18 months ago. My pain level, if not treated with Med. Marijuana, Tramadol, and/or Gabapentin...and now Kratom is 7-8 24/7 and is especially bad when at rest or asleep. I have burning pain in my legs, abdomen, shoulders/arms and ears and sinuses. I am almost 71. I will be experimenting with all the different kinds and see how they work. I imagine it will take awhile to get use to it and find what works best for me. There are some reliable websites that offer many kinds. I have ordered a different white, green, and red that should be here soon.

Oh man, I was going to say that if you can find an herbal pain balm with both St John's wort and comfrey it would be great for nerve pain but you're riddled with it! Sorry to hear this.

I made and sent an herbal oil blend with comfrey, calendula, arnica, helichrysum, cottonwood and lots of St John's wort infused oils in it to a friend with a nerve pain issue and he says it works well for him. Nerve pain is hard to manage.

My dad has been dealing with awful, debilitating nerve pain past few years. I'd buy the blend if you ever sell if again. We bought some from ForcesofNature but it is okay but expensive and doesn't always work or last too long. So, if you need any extra $$, I'll be a happy buyer (but no worries if you can't or don't have time or anything like that. Figured it was worth the shot to ask)

[herbalhippie]

@starshine

Thank You for the great info. Yes, I am just starting out. At 2 months I am learning a lot....HERE! I have peripheral neuropathy that started about 18 months ago. My pain level, if not treated with Med. Marijuana, Tramadol, and/or Gabapentin...and now Kratom is 7-8 24/7 and is especially bad when at rest or asleep. I have burning pain in my legs, abdomen, shoulders/arms and ears and sinuses. I am almost 71. I will be experimenting with all the different kinds and see how they work. I imagine it will take awhile to get use to it and find what works best for me. There are some reliable websites that offer many kinds. I have ordered a different white, green, and red that should be here soon.

Oh man, I was going to say that if you can find an herbal pain balm with both St John's wort and comfrey it would be great for nerve pain but you're riddled with it! Sorry to hear this.

I made and sent an herbal oil blend with comfrey, calendula, arnica, helichrysum, cottonwood and lots of St John's wort infused oils in it to a friend with a nerve pain issue and he says it works well for him. Nerve pain is hard to manage.

My dad has been dealing with awful, debilitating nerve pain past few years. I'd buy the blend if you ever sell if again. We bought some from ForcesofNature but it is okay but expensive and doesn't always work or last too long. So, if you need any extra $$, I'll be a happy buyer (but no worries if you can't or don't have time or anything like that. Figured it was worth the shot to ask)

That's the thing, it doesn't always last too long. Does he have nerve pain in a large area?

Edit: I see the problem, that Forces of Nature product is homeopathic, there's hardly any medicine in it. Also what I make is used topically, not internally.

[OriginalLHB]

Oh, I ordered from All Natural Artisan, Kratora, and Oties. I looked up what was suggested as good batch that others here liked a lot.

OK, you and I have a lot in common... peripheral neuropathy (I'm borderline diabetic & have chronic vascular problem lower leg etc.) And we're even close in age! - But, sounds like your pain situation is way beyond mine & sorry to hear that. Anyway... You have all you need. Forget "Kratora" overpriced... but ANA has the strongest kratom products on the market.

Want the strongest pain relief ? You've already got the ANA account. Otie's is great, too, but ANA - is similar to TFH, in experience. Proven history 10+ years. And iirc he was even dabbling in extract back 7 years ago on Reddit. So... Go directly to the Premium Jungle Jade, a 20% full spectrum extract (which is 10X stronger than the "best" Plain Leaf powder sold by any vendor!) - it's reasonably priced... LINK ... One thing, Get a digital milligram scale, to use quality extracts accurately.

There you go. A 20% extract has 200mg Mitragynine per gram... Carefully weigh, the gram into 20 servings = 10mg each. Use 1 to 3 servings, along with, HALF serving of regular Plain Leaf.

This extract was dried with great care to preserve the wide range of alkaloids. Our Premium Jungle Jade Extract is a 100% Full Spectrum Free Base Kratom extract with a dark green tint. As a result, the end product is most comparable to a red or heavy green plain leaf .... This is the undisputed favorite of our heavy Red kratom lovers. The full spectrum hits the red vein kratom notes like no other extract we have ever seen

EDIT - I like what Starshine is saying about DTE - and also cannabinoids at night mainly CBD w/ magnesium, good for sleep. I still drink the ol' Prune Juice for breakfast of course

As another chronic pain sufferer, I can attest to the excellence of ANA's Jungle Jade Extract. It's not super high powered at only about 20% MIT, but it really does accentuate the qualities of heavier, slower Reds at moderate doses. I usually bump my bedtime doses up by 100 - 150 mgs. of the Jungle Jade and it really helps. BTW, if you decide to use extracts, get a cheap milligram scale. The margin for error is small when attempting to eyeball quantities. Don't even try.

[MikeEdoessomething]

Oh man, I was going to say that if you can find an herbal pain balm with both St John's wort and comfrey it would be great for nerve pain but you're riddled with it! Sorry to hear this.

I made and sent an herbal oil blend with comfrey, calendula, arnica, helichrysum, cottonwood and lots of St John's wort infused oils in it to a friend with a nerve pain issue and he says it works well for him. Nerve pain is hard to manage.

My dad has been dealing with awful, debilitating nerve pain past few years. I'd buy the blend if you ever sell if again. We bought some from ForcesofNature but it is okay but expensive and doesn't always work or last too long. So, if you need any extra $$, I'll be a happy buyer (but no worries if you can't or don't have time or anything like that. Figured it was worth the shot to ask)

That's the thing, it doesn't always last too long. Does he have nerve pain in a large area?

Edit: I see the problem, that Forces of Nature product is homeopathic, there's hardly any medicine in it. Also what I make is used topically, not internally.

His nerve pain his from his hips down into his legs.

[herbalhippie]

My dad has been dealing with awful, debilitating nerve pain past few years. I'd buy the blend if you ever sell if again. We bought some from ForcesofNature but it is okay but expensive and doesn't always work or last too long. So, if you need any extra $$, I'll be a happy buyer (but no worries if you can't or don't have time or anything like that. Figured it was worth the shot to ask)

That's the thing, it doesn't always last too long. Does he have nerve pain in a large area?

Edit: I see the problem, that Forces of Nature product is homeopathic, there's hardly any medicine in it. Also what I make is used topically, not internally.

His nerve pain his from his hips down into his legs.

Ok, so you'd need quite a bit of product. The oil blend I made for my friend was in a relatively small amount as it's a small area on his face.

Let me think about this.

[MikeEdoessomething]

That's the thing, it doesn't always last too long. Does he have nerve pain in a large area?

Edit: I see the problem, that Forces of Nature product is homeopathic, there's hardly any medicine in it. Also what I make is used topically, not internally.

His nerve pain his from his hips down into his legs.

Ok, so you'd need quite a bit of product. The oil blend I made for my friend was in a relatively small amount as it's a small area on his face.

Let me think about this.

Of course, no worries. I should have been more specific haha... But His worst nerve pain is in his feet when he's trying to sleep. So the feet/toes would be where it would mostly be used, I think. That's where the ForcesofNature is used.

[IdiopathicPain247]

I have tried many topicals, as do my community of peripheral neuropathy ( Western Neuropathy Association, pnhelp.org ). We have Zoom meetings 3 times a month, about 35 people each time with new people every time. Many products that are topicals are discussed and efficacy for some people but not for others. I tried, cbd oil, cannabis oil, Capsazan, herbal rubs, and non of them help me. I have 2 vertebrae fused in my neck and quite a bit of vertebrae loss which is aggravating the nerves. That is where it started and then I developed the fully body neuropathy. The real mystery is why/how is it causing my sinuses and ears to have level 7-8 pain? I saw an ENT and got tested and examined. He said he didn't see anything that would be causing that much pain. Oral Kratom has been the best "med" I have used.

[herbalhippie]

My best suggestion for nerve pain would be a St. John's wort salve. The stuff I make is more like a cream than a salve, meaning
it's not just beeswax and an infused oil, it's an emulsification. Unfortunately, because of the cost of the many ingredients
and the time to make them and the finished product, it's also not inexpensive. Salves are generally cheaper because they're usually
only one or a few infused oils and beeswax and easy to make.

Etsy has some wonderful salves for sale and always less expensive than the local health food store.

[MikeEdoessomething]

My best suggestion for nerve pain would be a St. John's wort salve. The stuff I make is more like a cream than a salve, meaning
it's not just beeswax and an infused oil, it's an emulsification. Unfortunately, because of the cost of the many ingredients
and the time to make them and the finished product, it's also not inexpensive. Salves are generally cheaper because they're usually
only one or a few infused oils and beeswax and easy to make.

Etsy has some wonderful salves for sale and always less expensive than the local health food store.

THANKS! Appreciate the suggestion

[IdiopathicPain247]

I have tried many topicals, as do my community of peripheral neuropathy ( Western Neuropathy Association, pnhelp.org ). We have Zoom meetings 3 times a month, about 35 people each time with new people every time. Many products that are topicals are discussed and efficacy for some people but not for others. I tried, cbd oil, cannabis oil, Capsazan, herbal rubs, and non of them help me. I have 2 vertebrae fused in my neck and quite a bit of vertebrae loss which is aggravating the nerves. That is where it started and then I developed the fully body neuropathy. The real mystery is why/how is it causing my sinuses and ears to have level 7-8 pain? I saw an ENT and got tested and examined. He said he didn't see anything that would be causing that much pain. Oral Kratom has been the best "med" I have used.

Update : My pain is getting worse. I haven't changed anything, except taking 1 1/2 grams at first, and then bumping about 40 min. later with a gram. I am using less and it works better, BUT Kratom might not be powerful enough to cut the pain on the dosing I do now. My problem isn't withdrawal from opioids. It is constant pain. As soon as I lay down and close my eyes and hopefully fall asleep the pain when I wake up is getting to be 8-9 pain level. I will be 71 this week.
I am starting to wonder if Kratom can be taken in small amounts when needed, like 1 1/2 grams every 3 to four hours. I can only sleep for 5 hours now. I have been taking 5 grams of some good reds that have a rotation of about 8 different batches at about 2am. About half of them use to put me to sleep. That was for about a month. Now I am half way between sleep and wake. I get very relaxed and it is always welcome, but I would like to sleep till about 5am. ( go to bed/sleep around 10pm and without enough sleep the fatigue in the day mounts rather quickly) I took a Tramadol 50mg a few days ago at about 3am because I wasn't falling a sleep. It worked.
Now I am wondering if I am going to have to talk to my doctor about prescribing me more tramadol, and using it with Kratom. I will just say my pain need 50mgs daily. Right now I get 12 per month. 30 is quite a request. I haven't told her about Kratom, and won't because she is part of the Med system, and I don't want to take the chance of bad reactions from her. I am wondering if any one on Double M has this kind of problem.?

[Kelleytoons]

I'm older than you but have been *somewhat* in your situation (no one can ever experience what another does - all we can do is have similar experiences) and my first thought immediately was - kratom isn't the answer.

Kratom helps, no question about it, but if you are having constant pain at this level you need to get the base problem addressed. And if it's not fixable (stage 4 cancer isn't) then you need something like medical grass that will REALLY knock you for a loop. No one should live with this kind of pain and although the medical establishment sucks when dealing with pain there are still avenues you can and should be exploring. Again, WAY beyond kratom.

Just my opinion but I sure feel a huge empathy. Life with pain isn't really life.

[IdiopathicPain247]

Thank You @Kelleytoons. I can't use potent pot because I get high, and it gets my mind going in too many directions to relax. I do micro dose a couple of strains but to use it for sleep or real pain relief doesn't work. You right, everyone has different responses to drugs. I have to hang in here, and keep trying different things. I am trying the "when needed" approach today. 1 1/2 grams. I will try to stay under 14 gpd.