TFH Red 707

[Kelleytoons]

So Chris gave me approval to write about this and I have to do so because, honestly, this was the best red I've ever had.

Now - here are the usual disclaimers: YMMV, I have a TON of reds and some are EXCELLENT, and I took this red after having a two week reset (but I had taken four or five other strains prior to this. Most of those didn't "hit" so when this did... it was spectacular).

It was fast (for capsules, that is) and long lasting. It was everything I want in a red: namely, pain relief, euphoria, well-being and calming. I take my reds, as a rule, about an hour or two before bed time so I can sleep through the night (too much pain otherwise, particularly after tennis). Not only did I sleep through the night, I slept through my alarm (NEVER happens).

I immediately ordered it - this will go into my collection as number one. I'm pretty positive this will make the menu given other things I know (but can't share) but I have no idea when or what the name will be (and I'll talk about this in another post on the forum).

[Arob1000]

Nice; thanks for the review! I’m excited to grab some once it hits the menu.

[add to descartes]

I sampled that a couple days ago and enjoyed it as well. on the survey link, I clicked the "green" option because it felt more like a green to me. I think I gave it a 7; it was good, but I think you liked it more than me. did you try it more than once?

[Kelleytoons]

Yes, I actually tried all the samples twice - just to be sure.

The 709 and 711 were both "meh" (and I rated them as such, although to me anything 7 and below is pretty meh. I think I gave them a 6 and a 7). I only rave about things I rated 10. But we always need to explain "YMMV". And I do think it's important to keep the conditions as constant as possible (so I always TEST on an empty stomach 12 hour fast, after my BM and before any food). Doing this makes any results I get pretty consistent (note that my FIRST test of 707 was NOT under these conditions and still was pretty wonderful. Which is why I tested again two days later).

[add to descartes]

I also got the 709 and 711, didn't get much out of them either, but I thought the 709 was little better than the 711.

and yeah I always take mine on an empty stomach. it's not worth doing otherwise, food totally ruins it. I wait 6 hours at a minimum, except the morning dose which is longer. I personally don't find bowel movements to make a difference.

[froggy33]

I remember a few of you were raging about the Green 611, that was more of a red. Is it still one of your alls favs, Arob and Kelley.

[Kelleytoons]

I rated it as a 9 so it's not one of my favs (those are all "10"s) but it's definitely good.

707 was MUCH better. To me (those last two words are VERY important). I would have gone 11 or higher (reminds me of This is Spinal Tap :>)

[herbalhippie]

I have COMPLETELY lost track of the narrative here.

611, 707, 709.

Maybe I should just order them all.

[Arob1000]

I remember a few of you were raging about the Green 611, that was more of a red. Is it still one of your alls favs, Arob and Kelley.

I like 611 still, have a bunch if you want some (never made the menu!) it’s a slow red-like green. Haven’t tried these new ones, my last TFH order last month didn’t come with any testers.

[WhiteAngelica]

Mr. Kelley is dead on right about Red 707. It blew my pants off. Then my socks. Then I luxuriated in the blissful waves until the sample was done, evaluated and accounted for!

[herbalhippie]

Is this Red 707 a daytime red or an evening red?

Asking for....me.

[Kelleytoons]

I took it both ways and enjoyed it both ways but I'm not sure how you define something.

For me I outlined what a red is and what this red does at the top.

[Lokey]

Nice; thanks for the review! I’m excited to grab some once it hits the menu.

Couldn't you order it now since Kelley did and they haven't made a decision yet not to sell testers?

[Markra]

I’m sure we could but like he said some members got different versions of the 707 so idk

[Kelleytoons]

Yes and now I'm really sorry I started this whole discussion - not just this thread, but elsewhere.

When I was testing the ten samples I first got a month or two ago I was VERY careful not to mention numbers anywhere because I didn't want to skew the TFH honest testing. Even the few others who seemed to be testing the same samples I was when we communicated privately we agreed NOT to share how we thought about anything until we had fully tested. I should have followed that here and I am really ashamed I did not.

My only defense was this one was SO spectacular that I really was shaken up... but that's no real excuse and I should have been thinking more clearly. I will NEVER do this again in the future if I ever am allowed to test anything again.

As others have posted, not only could this sample be labeled something different, but the same number might be used for a completely DIFFERENT sample. So don't assume anything. If it's good, it will make the menu (and perhaps I'll find out what name it's called then, but if I don't that's okay as well). We know that, given the way TFH tests, it's ALL goodness on the menu.

(Now I'm off to keep my big mouth shut for a while).

[froggy33]

I remember a few of you were raging about the Green 611, that was more of a red. Is it still one of your alls favs, Arob and Kelley.

I like 611 still, have a bunch if you want some (never made the menu!) it’s a slow red-like green. Haven’t tried these new ones, my last TFH order last month didn’t come with any testers.

Thanks for the feedback! Much appreciated

[froggy33]

I rated it as a 9 so it's not one of my favs (those are all "10"s) but it's definitely good.

707 was MUCH better. To me (those last two words are VERY important). I would have gone 11 or higher (reminds me of This is Spinal Tap :>)

Sweet, good to know. I never order testers just wait to order off menu.

[gumbyke1]

Yes and now I'm really sorry I started this whole discussion - not just this thread, but elsewhere.

When I was testing the ten samples I first got a month or two ago I was VERY careful not to mention numbers anywhere because I didn't want to skew the TFH honest testing. Even the few others who seemed to be testing the same samples I was when we communicated privately we agreed NOT to share how we thought about anything until we had fully tested. I should have followed that here and I am really ashamed I did not.

My only defense was this one was SO spectacular that I really was shaken up... but that's no real excuse and I should have been thinking more clearly. I will NEVER do this again in the future if I ever am allowed to test anything again.

As others have posted, not only could this sample be labeled something different, but the same number might be used for a completely DIFFERENT sample. So don't assume anything. If it's good, it will make the menu (and perhaps I'll find out what name it's called then, but if I don't that's okay as well). We know that, given the way TFH tests, it's ALL goodness on the menu.

(Now I'm off to keep my big mouth shut for a while).

Nothing to be sorry about at all Kelleytunes! We are totally okay with you talking about testers, as a matter of fact, I think you even asked me directly if it would be okay to discuss them and I told you yes! The vast majority of our consumer testing is done privately among existing members, and with those, I know for a fact that people are comparing notes... a lot of notes, lol. We get tons of orders for testers that people have never tested, and that's totally fine. Its just the reality of what is going to happen, which is why we have refined our process to account for that. We are all fans of the leaf and want to share with our friends when we find something awesome....that is what this forum is all about! I would do the same thing back in my days as a consumer, and I dont want to rob any avid collector the joy of striking gold and sharing with friends Seriously, I love this aspect of the community...its what it's all about!

People who do our private testing will know that I don't expressly ask that they not discuss samples with others, if it were something we were totally against we would make it a requirement for volunteering. The only time I think that we do ask for people not to discuss samples is when we were doing public testing here on the forum. The reason for that is I knew that there would be tons of posts about it, and I was worried that that volume of chatter would heavily influence response bias. Interestingly enough, we can actual learn more about bias by examining the scoring trends of a given batch before and after it gets some publicity - data can tell a lot of interesting stories. At any rate, given that was your first experience testing with us was during that public event, it makes sense why you would think we might be so concerned about it.

Please dont feel bad or apologize, every time I read one of those it makes me feel like the kratom grinch or something, lol! This forum is for sharing, by all means share.

[Billiegoat]

You make this sound incredible!! Is there a name yet?? How do I get my hands on some?? (For science)

[gumbyke1]

I’m sure we could but like he said some members got different versions of the 707 so idk

707 was the same for everyone, and we pretty much got all enough survey data to make a decision before anyone even started talking about it on here. It's officially going to make the menu at some time in the future, but we havent even began to consider when that might be. However, I have been getting a lot of inquiries about the complexity of a testing process, so Ill give a sneak peek of 707 since we are on the subject Note that this is just part of the survey data, I'm not giving the full picture here to try and keep it breif but I think its enough to illustrate what I'm about to break down.



Just looking at the survey data of this batch, you can see that its average overall quality score is 8.22 (on a scale of 1-10). When we first began our research, the average score was basically all we looked at. I mean it makes sense, right? However, just looking at the average score is actually a lazy and ineffective way to use this data to evaluate overall quality - there is a lot more that must be considered. There are even other steps that come between collection and analysis that should be considered such as “survey cleaning”, but that’s a deeper rabbit hole that I wont go down here for the sake of brevity (who am I kidding in thinking this might be brief, lol). When reading survey data, if the details are ignored or the data is read poorly, it can really limit our ability to capture valuable insight and it dramatically reduces the credibility of our findings. Over the years we have become much more refined in how we collect and interpret data, I’ll give just a few high-level examples of some other ways to view the data.

Now back to the overall quality score of 8.22. On the surface that doesn't sound very impressive. It’s not bad, but its not great either. However, you have to first consider what the scale of 1-10 represents.

1 = Poor Quality
5 = Average – comparable to what you will find from most online vendors
10 = Exceptional - some of the best leaf currently available.

Following that scale, if a "5" is average, then "8.22" is more than above average, it's actually creeping into the range of really good. However, that's just part of the story that is being told here.
Our experience has taught us that you will hardly ever find a batch that is a home run for every person. Thanks to our "friend" personal chemistry, its exceedingly rare that we find a batch where 100% or even 95% of testers score it above a 7 or 8.... it just doesn't happen very often. Since our goal is to construct a menu where the consumer will on have a higher probability of finding batches that work well for them, it's really important for us to take into consideration the overall approval ratio of each batch.

A score of “7” is generally defined as “above average” and most consumers give “menu approval” to items they score 7 or higher. Out of 32 surveys, only 3 people scored it below a "7" with the lowest score being a "5" (6, 6, 5). Accepting that standard, this batch has an approval ratio of 29/32, or roughly a 91% favorability rate.

I know that 91% doesn’t sound like anything special if this were ratings on Amazon…it would basically equate to a 4.5 of 5 stars. Whatever the product was, that would be good enough for me to feel comfortable pulling the trigger, however, it wouldn’t give me the impression that this thing is particularly awesome. However, in the world of kratom (or “kratom roulette”), having 9 out of 10 people consider the batch as “above average” it’s actually pretty good. Back in my days as a consumer, if I were told I have a 90% chance of being pleased with a batch it would absolutely make my list of batches to order.

However, the story is still not complete. Let’s take a look at how the scores of those who approved are broken down:
10 = 7 respondents
9 = 7 respondents
8 = 8 respondents
7 = 7 respondents
We can see here that of those who liked this batch, roughly 50% of surveyors found it to be one of the best batches available or very close to it (9 or 10). The other 50% found it to be above average/good (7 or 8). So if we break down the probabilities that a person will like it, we have the following:

0% will find it as poor quality
9% will find it as average
46% will find it as good/ very good
44% will find it as the best you can get or very close to it

Those odds are pretty promising when you break it down like that. As a consumer, when its broken down this way it is much more appealing than if I saw it had an average score of 8.2. We are in the business of providing what the consumer wants, so its really important that we look at things this way.

But that’s not even where the analysis ends. There are other ways to analyze the data such as seeking out a central tendency by removing the highest and lowest 10% of survey scores (this can help offset some of the one-offs that might exist because of a tester having an "off" day). There are tons of different techniques to apply here, and they can all help give you a better picture.

Also, remember that I am only sharing part of the data here. There are other things I can consider here such as providing different “weights” to each individual surveyor's score. Perhaps I want to decrease the weight of surveys from people who have been consuming kratom for less than one year, and give more weight to surveyors with 5+ years of experience. I can also assign weight by a surveyor's average score or even cross-reference it with how a surveyor has scored other high-quality batches in the past. I could also look at the surveyor's other history to remove “straight line” answers. I could also begin breaking down correlations with the preference profiles of individual surveyors. I'll stop with the possibilities, but as you can imagine, sometimes it pays to get into the nitty-gritty especially if we are having a hard time making a decision.

Another thing to consider is the possibility of just having “bad data”. I always tell surveyors that I would rather have no data than bad data, but it still happens. For example:

- There are people who might have submitted 7 surveys at once and they are just assigning scores to each sample by memory (this usually does not provide good data).
- Sometimes scoring from one tester may appear to be random or contrary (such as straight-line answers, or answers that with each sample contradict the crowd). This could indicate that the surveyor was just submitting them to check it off as complete, or perhaps they are fighting a virus or something and just can't get a good read on things.

These are just a couple of things that should be taken into consideration, especially if you don’t have a very big pool of data to play with. Occasionally we might see a great divide between the people who absolutely love a batch and those who score it a 1-3. I'm looking at a real-life example right now where we only have 20 surveys in and 15 people (75%) rated it between “7-10” and 5 people (25%) rated it a “3” or below. The average turns out to be 6.65, which right away looks like it’s not menu worthy. However, with a good chunk of people loving it and such a small pool of data, it's hard not to wonder if maybe 1 or 2 of those who scored it low were just not primed for kratom that day and no matter what they tested, it was going to be a “1”. If we were to just turn 2 of the low scores into an “8”, well suddenly the overall quality score is a “7.25”… that getting in the territory that might need to expand testing or look at the data in a different way (especially since some people really seemed to like it).

In the scenario above, we might decide to simply expand the testing pool or maybe target those testers who scored low with the same sample in the future, but under a different tester ID. A lot of you have noticed that sometimes it takes a long time for a batch to appear on the menu, this can sometimes be the reason (there are other reasons too that have to do with a planned release schedule to ensure our batches are consistent year-round).

Im finding myself getting into territory where I could talk forever here, so I am just going to wrap up. It wasn’t my intention to get this deep, but I think there are likely one or two fellow nerds here who might appreciate it.

[Kelleytoons]

I'm glad you did a deep dive here - for a number of reasons. First, really good to have all this info. It's also VERY interesting. And it brings a better focus to how my rating might match up (I can actually see my rating there, as I am the only one with the experience and the "10" that match up to me :>).

And a personal reason - today I was at the ER because my wife needed an emergency blood transfusion - not trying to get sympathy here (way too early to even know what is wrong) but it left me as shaken as I have been in my adult life. I grabbed a number of things before making the 30 minute drive to the hospital, but one was kratom, and it was 707. Because I needed something I KNEW would be great.

It did not disappoint - even in the midst of what I might call one of the most awful days of my life it brought me a peace I really needed. I wish I could medicate all night long on it (but it doesn't work that way for me - I won't be able to use it again for at least a week). But it was just proof to me this is truly a superior batch. I can't think of any other one I have that would have worked under those circumstances.

(The personal reason I'm glad you wrote so much is it kind of buries this so that folks might not overreact. We all live with issues, and problems, and that's part of getting old as well. Father Time is undefeated and my wife and I have had more than our share of great living).

[Ktom]

Another factor I find personally interesting is some leaf takes two to four or more burns before I can subjectively get a read on it.

Other leaf hits a homer on the first burn but soon settles down to a lower rating.

Still other leaf is strong out of the gate and continues to deliver.

That is why for me personally I need multiple burns to know what I may be dealing with and even then, there are variables.

Then of course there is the leaf that changes course on its own

That’s ONE of the reasons I love TFH so much.....I can grab a batch and pretty much know the odds are high it will eventually hit. Maybe not always 9 or 10, but usually between 7 and 10 and again that is prone to change even after I make a determination.

Leaf is a funny, fickle creature.......

[BookofEnoch1914]

I'm glad you did a deep dive here - for a number of reasons. First, really good to have all this info. It's also VERY interesting. And it brings a better focus to how my rating might match up (I can actually see my rating there, as I am the only one with the experience and the "10" that match up to me :>).

And a personal reason - today I was at the ER because my wife needed an emergency blood transfusion - not trying to get sympathy here (way too early to even know what is wrong) but it left me as shaken as I have been in my adult life. I grabbed a number of things before making the 30 minute drive to the hospital, but one was kratom, and it was 707. Because I needed something I KNEW would be great.

It did not disappoint - even in the midst of what I might call one of the most awful days of my life it brought me a peace I really needed. I wish I could medicate all night long on it (but it doesn't work that way for me - I won't be able to use it again for at least a week). But it was just proof to me this is truly a superior batch. I can't think of any other one I have that would have worked under those circumstances.

(The personal reason I'm glad you wrote so much is it kind of buries this so that folks might not overreact. We all live with issues, and problems, and that's part of getting old as well. Father Time is undefeated and my wife and I have had more than our share of great living).

Sending Prayers for you and your wife. Thinking of you Kelley.

[Babel-17]

Now I'm curious about the Red 705 I sampled. I didn't get the 707, but the 705 was very nice.

I gave it an overall score of "8", with a "9" for longevity. I rated it as being a Bentaguie.

Tasted like a classic Red/Chocolate Bentaguie, slightly sweet, maybe just a little bit fire cured? Very nice and relaxing, but helping with alertness, and not sedating. For those looking for a Chocolate Bent this could be a 9.

[Kelleytoons]

Sending Prayers for you and your wife. Thinking of you Kelley.

Thanks - we need all we can get.

[add to descartes]

I went ahead and ordered a quarter of the 707. I thought about getting more, but I'm always nervous about getting too much of one strain, in case it ends up not working.

today is veteran's day, so no mail, and then it's Saturday. I'm assuming it won't go out til Monday?

[instantKARMA]

I rated the 707 a 7. After reading the glowing reviews here on Double M, I checked and I had enough remaining for one more try.
Previously I tested it at a little over 2 grams and this final time at 3 grams. Holy Hell, at 3 grams this is serious leaf, great pain
relief, sweet mood boost and just a great all around feel. It was significantly more potent at 3 grams than the amount I previously
tested. Based on my last test this is easily a 9, perhaps a 10! Damn good stuff!

[herbalhippie]

I rated the 707 a 7. After reading the glowing reviews here on Double M, I checked and I had enough remaining for one more try.
Previously I tested it at a little over 2 grams and this final time at 3 grams. Holy Hell, at 3 grams this is serious leaf, great pain
relief, sweet mood boost and just a great all around feel. It was significantly more potent at 3 grams than the amount I previously
tested. Based on my last test this is easily a 9, perhaps a 10! Damn good stuff!

Glad I ordered.....some

[BallzDeep9]

Father Time is undefeated and my wife and I have had more than our share of great living.

I'm just catching up here - Busy week, Election and all. We got a break from the rain, I spent time with family & friends.. Time is more precious these days. Passing along good thoughts about you Kelley & your wife, we're around same age. Happy holidays! Turkey Day <> 2 weeks!

I always re-read Gumby's post a few times.. great having a few more things to chew on! TFH is so unique... I recall, long ago asking Chris about using Weighted Averages, rather than simple... you'd assign a Rating to each person who is testing. Maybe a range of zero to 1, start with, years experience ? Then of course, you'd gather stats about individuals who are more, or less, accurate with their numbers compared to the overall Group?

Another idea here, maybe someone already suggested ? IS to Print the Sample # on Menu, and/or on bags ? I guess that's assuming "sample period" is completed, so would be OK to reveal which # was used during testing... A few of us Old Timers, may recall when TFH did use Names on the samples! LOL - I was glad to see them switch to blind numbers. Remove that bias!

[instantKARMA]

I rated the 707 a 7. After reading the glowing reviews here on Double M, I checked and I had enough remaining for one more try.
Previously I tested it at a little over 2 grams and this final time at 3 grams. Holy Hell, at 3 grams this is serious leaf, great pain
relief, sweet mood boost and just a great all around feel. It was significantly more potent at 3 grams than the amount I previously
tested. Based on my last test this is easily a 9, perhaps a 10! Damn good stuff!

Glad I ordered.....some

Double M may be my wife's worst enemy!

[Roofdog]

I rated the 707 a 7. After reading the glowing reviews here on Double M, I checked and I had enough remaining for one more try.
Previously I tested it at a little over 2 grams and this final time at 3 grams. Holy Hell, at 3 grams this is serious leaf, great pain
relief, sweet mood boost and just a great all around feel. It was significantly more potent at 3 grams than the amount I previously
tested. Based on my last test this is easily a 9, perhaps a 10! Damn good stuff!

Glad I ordered.....some

Double M may be my wife's worst enemy!

Private venmo account or take her shopping!!

[anonk]

With all the hype surrounding this one I decided to give it a shot, as a veteran user (10yrs) this is solid leaf, although I didn't get much of mood boost just pain relief with long legs. I'd give it a 8 with the Master Craft Red being a 10, although I can't seem to replicate the magic of my first experience with it.

[Roofdog]

Just got the red 707 today. It is a very good red. It give a lot of energy for a red. Very uplifting and pain relieving, potent, and hits pretty quickly. I am 1 hour in so I can update more this evening or tomorrow. Right now I really like this one.

Approximately 4hrs later. Still going strong, this is a keeper.
Im going to mix this with oties white elephant in the morning. Should be a kicker. Lol

[herbalhippie]

I should have mine in the next day or two. I sure hope I like it, KELLYTOONS.

[herbalhippie]

Ok yeah. It's pretty damn good. Mood boost, euphoric. Not in pain today so I can't speak for that. Glad I got it!

Thanks, Kellytoons!

[IndelibleDotInk]

Kellytoons, watch out, she's been known to send K dustbombs to people on her S list, lol.

[herbalhippie]

Kellytoons, watch out, she's been known to send K dustbombs to people on her S list, lol.

pfft

[IndelibleDotInk]

where's kaliegirl been?

maybe if you do another vintage auction it'll bring out some of the quiet ones.

[Kelleytoons]

Let me reiterate what we all know, though - this stuff is SO highly reactive that you just never know.

I did the Golden Gajah (which at least two or three folks here raved about) and for me it was meh (I tried it twice - I did put it in my rotation to come back to it in a few months but if it doesn't hit then it's out). And for me it's a FAR bigger issue than most, as I can't even put my stuff on the Trading Post (since I make it all into capsules - I am NOT going to try and trade capsules on the post).

But I'm not complaining and I don't worry about it - all people can say is how it works for them and assuming they aren't lying and are otherwise reliable (and I assure you I am) then the rest of us just need to be adults and decide for ourselves. I've learned the hard way not to buy TOO much (there will be TFH Sundra going up on the post) and in relation to Chris' post elsewhere, I've also learned to be careful about ordering testers (because the Samarinda I ordered will be Posted unopened as well). But I don't feel one bit sorry because I did get some spectacular stuff (although I will admit that if I try the "amazing" Hulu today and it misses I will be very disappointed).

I don't even think you can do the "well, the last one he recommended I also liked so I'll have what he's having" because I've gone with folks who recommended stuff here and they were exactly what I felt with some batches, but completely off with others. Again (and at least for the last time this week) Kratom is so very highly personal that I'm not sure there's more than just a "general" rating that a group of folks can give, with some rare exceptions (I haven't seen any of us not like Otie's White Elephant, for example).

[Lokey]

Haha, well I'm one who got samples of both the white elephant and red MD and although they seemed OK didn't understand all the rave about them and didn't purchase more. I still have some green samples I haven't finished.