the problem with discussing tolerance and dosage online

[add to descartes]

I think there's a real problem on kratom forums (and drug forums more generally), where some people tend to look down on, or give unwarranted advice to, those that take what they deem is too much or too often. i see it all the time; I'm sure the majority of users are familiar with it.

everyone has different needs and different preferences. it would be nice to get past this sort of "dosage bias" that pervades many kratom discussions, many times in completely unrelated threads. it's usually not pertinent to the topic at hand (unless the poster is asking for help with tolerance or dosage). people aren't always looking for someone to give them advice about how much they should be taking. it might come from a good place, but it can come across as condescending. this is why a lot of people will often minimize their usage online, for fear of the admonishment that follows. in the end, it can limit discussion because people feel they can't be totally honest.

this is just my opinion. what do you think?

[Kelleytoons]

In general I think you're right that there is a lot of "dosage shaming" (not so much on these forums but on a lot of places, including Reddit). And that frequent dosing is something NONE of us should ever judge. OTOH, I do think it's worth pointing out that kratom taken at much larger than 3 grams doesn't work for anyone - IOW, there is definite proof that the upward limit of a per dose effectiveness is <4 grams at a time. (Some folks say as little as 1 gram but I think it's fair to say that 3 is the magic number that you don't want to exceed). I strongly suspect that anecdotal evidence to the contrary is mostly either wishful thinking or psychological delusion.

That said there is nothing wrong with thinking that more is better, although it IS wrongheaded. For a long time that's what I felt and it wasn't until another forum user convinced me otherwise that I would have sworn by that. But "overdosing" (taking more at one time than you need to) isn't harmful and if it's what you want to do then great. We should never tell folks they are taking too much if it works for them.

Where I would argue it's important to point out otherwise is where folks say "I'm taking X grams and it isn't working". In those cases pointing out that lowering the dose might work better is ALWAYS a good idea.

[Eu4oric906]

So I can tell from your choice of words OP that you take way too much kratom, and I feel like I want to help you find a better path where you can enjoy its benefits like I do. Without your clear overindulgence.

Sorry friend, in all seriousness its a good point. I have a good friend who overdoes it some by my standards but who was quite an addict to far worse than kratom. I have to respect how far he has come and realize his journey differs from mine. I wish he would tone it down some but I have to respect his ride, not always easy but to your point nagging isn't the answer.

[Badgame85]

I'm pretty sure you and I have crossed this subject before indirectly on another thread. I agree 300% with your post. Unfortunately I feel like as people in general, everyone believes there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything... including kratom dosage. And it's MUCH easier to stand behind what you think is right and wrong when your sitting behind a computer screen anonymous to whomever is reading. What's crazy is people come across so condescending and they don't even realize it. Perhaps it is a perception issue?

I know personally I have been afraid to comment my dosage amount at any given time expecting a backlash (if it isn't .65 grams 2x a day or sometimes 1.35 grams on rough days )

But honestly I don't ever recall any negative comments (at least on here) when I openly discuss my dosage amounts and frequency. That's at least a good thing for here.

To throw it out there:

M-F - 5-7g 2x day
Sat-Sun - 5-7g 2x day (morning night) and 2-4 grams mid day in-between (when my kids are driving me nuts and running me ragged )

I'm sure the Kratom Aficionado's will come and thrash me now lol. Anyone whom thinks that's to high... I can assure you that I was once much much higher. And its people like that dose whom dose that high that keep the vendors happy and profitable

[GrannyJ62]

I'm pretty sure you and I have crossed this subject before indirectly on another thread. I agree 300% with your post. Unfortunately I feel like as people in general, everyone believes there is a right way and a wrong way to do everything... including kratom dosage. And it's MUCH easier to stand behind what you think is right and wrong when your sitting behind a computer screen anonymous to whomever is reading. What's crazy is people come across so condescending and they don't even realize it. Perhaps it is a perception issue?

I know personally I have been afraid to comment my dosage amount at any given time expecting a backlash (if it isn't .65 grams 2x a day or sometimes 1.35 grams on rough days )

But honestly I don't ever recall any negative comments (at least on here) when I openly discuss my dosage amounts and frequency. That's at least a good thing for here.

To throw it out there:

M-F - 5-7g 2x day
Sat-Sun - 5-7g 2x day (morning night) and 2-4 grams mid day in-between (when my kids are driving me nuts and running me ragged )

I'm sure the Kratom Aficionado's will come and thrash me now lol. Anyone whom thinks that's to high... I can assure you that I was once much much higher. And its people like that dose whom dose that high that keep the vendors happy and profitable

I m right there to 5 to 7 twice a day although its pretty much 24/7 and I also allow myself up to 20gpd and I take a 3 day tbreak once a month its been pretty much the same the last 3 yrs the first year I was just trying to stay ahead of my pain and really didn't worry at all about how much or little.I started kratom because I had been on prescription pain meds for over two decades 5 hydro 10s and 2 morphine 60s a day which had stopped helping my pain but I couldn't go without.I really couldn't believe this leaf could help me but it did and has for over 4 yrs.I would never dose shame anyone and I ve never felt that here nothing but kindness we never know the road some have walked.At first I worried it wouldn't continue working I kept getting my scripts for 3 months before telling Dr its simple for me I have pain control now I think I could go lower now but it's my decision no one else's.I love my life now this works for Me.

[BallzDeep9]

There would not be ANY need, to even discuss this - Except, that clearly all the "Negativity" around Kratom, is coming from --> the "Abusers".

Or put another way. Nobody who does < 5 grams per day... is complaining about "How Terrible" they feel... . those horrible Side Effects ("Losing all my Hair!", I can't sleep at night - INsomnia! a pool of sweat! I'm having Withdrawals ALL day long! I'm so dehyrdated and constipated! ) On and on ... FOR anyone not sure what I'm talking about --> I refer you to -- "Quitting Kratom" on Reddit LOL https://www.reddit.com/r/quittingkratom/

Again, wouldn't be a Problem - We could say "whatever", . except these folks have gotten SO loud!! Just Search on YouTube "Kratom". MOST of the videos are now, Negative, ANTI kratom, BAD kratom.... that wasn't the case 4 years ago. Most YouTube videos on kratom back then... were positive, discovering, cool, etc... there's been a definite backlash, ANTI kratom - everywhere online - and it's not the herbal coffee users... It's the "Kratom = Drug" people. VERY linked in, with the whole Recovery business, N-A groups, and addicts in general who get frustrated w/ kratom

[Loveandpeace]

There would not be ANY need, to even discuss this - Except, that clearly all the "Negativity" around Kratom, is coming from --> the "Abusers".

Or put another way. Nobody who does < 5 grams per day... is complaining about "How Terrible" they feel... . those horrible Side Effects ("Losing all my Hair!", I can't sleep at night - INsomnia! a pool of sweat! I'm having Withdrawals ALL day long! I'm so dehyrdated and constipated! ) On and on ... FOR anyone not sure what I'm talking about --> I refer you to -- "Quitting Kratom" on Reddit LOL https://www.reddit.com/r/quittingkratom/

Again, wouldn't be a Problem - We could say "whatever", . except these folks have gotten SO loud!! Just Search on YouTube "Kratom". MOST of the videos are now, Negative, ANTI kratom, BAD kratom.... that wasn't the case 4 years ago. Most YouTube videos on kratom back then... were positive, discovering, cool, etc... there's been a definite backlash, ANTI kratom - everywhere online - and it's not the herbal coffee users... It's the "Kratom = Drug" people. VERY linked in, with the whole Recovery business, N-A groups, and addicts in general who get frustrated w/ kratom

Well stated Ballz!!

[BallzDeep9]

Just picked one at Random, from the "Quitting" sub... he's going around shouting from the rooftops! - No, I'm not laughing. Substance Abuse is serious... OCD is a terrible mental illness condition. But - the Take-away for all his friends, family, etc is - Kratom BAD.

Brain Chemistry all messed up! I need to see a doctor. I’ve been taking opiates for 4 years, benzos before that. Last year I was deep in the fetty 30s. Switched to K extracts to avoid falling down the hole. I think my daily use had gotten so high my body was attacking itself. About $60 worth a day. I wasn’t keeping track, but my gpd was somewhere 60-100. I think I may have went through AKI at home and recovered naturally. I was totally completely sick (sweating buckets, puking 15+ times a day, back pain, rls) probably 10-20 times in the past year. I finally got strong enough to quit recently. Never been a period this long where I haven’t taken some type of pharmaceutical. Now I just feel like I’m constantly outside my body. Just looking down and judging myself for every interaction and things about myself. -- https://www.reddit.com/r/quittingkratom ... messed_up/

[uspatriot995]

Just picked one at Random, from the "Quitting" sub... he's going around shouting from the rooftops! - No, I'm not laughing. Substance Abuse is serious... OCD is a terrible mental illness condition. But - the Take-away for all his friends, family, etc is - Kratom BAD.

Brain Chemistry all messed up! I need to see a doctor. I’ve been taking opiates for 4 years, benzos before that. Last year I was deep in the fetty 30s. Switched to K extracts to avoid falling down the hole. I think my daily use had gotten so high my body was attacking itself. About $60 worth a day. I wasn’t keeping track, but my gpd was somewhere 60-100. I think I may have went through AKI at home and recovered naturally. I was totally completely sick (sweating buckets, puking 15+ times a day, back pain, rls) probably 10-20 times in the past year. I finally got strong enough to quit recently. Never been a period this long where I haven’t taken some type of pharmaceutical. Now I just feel like I’m constantly outside my body. Just looking down and judging myself for every interaction and things about myself. -- https://www.reddit.com/r/quittingkratom ... messed_up/

Yeah, this is NFG. Best to keep it on topics at hand. I'd hate to think anything is contributing to that negative image of Kratom. Good points, good posts.
Discretion is important. Now I'm not saying I hadn't taken 6gm a few times (a red of course). Ahem.

[Daydreamsofmountains]

Just picked one at Random, from the "Quitting" sub... he's going around shouting from the rooftops! - No, I'm not laughing. Substance Abuse is serious... OCD is a terrible mental illness condition. But - the Take-away for all his friends, family, etc is - Kratom BAD.

Brain Chemistry all messed up! I need to see a doctor. I’ve been taking opiates for 4 years, benzos before that. Last year I was deep in the fetty 30s. Switched to K extracts to avoid falling down the hole. I think my daily use had gotten so high my body was attacking itself. About $60 worth a day. I wasn’t keeping track, but my gpd was somewhere 60-100. I think I may have went through AKI at home and recovered naturally. I was totally completely sick (sweating buckets, puking 15+ times a day, back pain, rls) probably 10-20 times in the past year. I finally got strong enough to quit recently. Never been a period this long where I haven’t taken some type of pharmaceutical. Now I just feel like I’m constantly outside my body. Just looking down and judging myself for every interaction and things about myself. -- https://www.reddit.com/r/quittingkratom ... messed_up/

“Switched to k extracts to avoid falling down that hole.” I feel for these folks that are in this situation. But their situation isn’t about kratom - it is about addiction and most likely trauma and mental health that led to the addictive behaviors. Trying to make the brain feel a certain way. Hell I used to use exercise and food in that way and it wasn’t about either of those at the end of the day but how I used them and for what.

[BallzDeep9]

.... it's usually not pertinent to the topic at hand (unless the poster is asking for help with tolerance or dosage). People aren't always looking for someone to give them advice about how much they should be taking. it might come from a good place, but it can come across as condescending.

I get this, and it's actually a bit complex - the psychology - We definitely must keep in mind, people are different, use kratom FOR different reasons... and that's OK. To be expected. And respected... But often an opinion, may be perceived as too personal - When advice is only offered in response to Help - And advice is offered from one's own experience. Since kratom daily usage, has NOT really been studied by Science ? all we've got is anecdotes to share.

For Me, doing 20 gpd brought terrible Side Effects. When I lowered down to 12 gpd, the problems hung around. Having maxed out my Tolerance, kratom wasn't working, at least not the effects I wanted... Effect was only, to feel normal. Otherwise I was in constant withdrawals! - After each "Dose" then I felt OK for maybe 2 hours. Then right back into a very tired, withdrawal, feeling... I had to taper down, take a few days break, then start over...

So, it's hard to imagine wanting that ? But, everyone must find their own "sweet spot", for daily use. It's tricky, it's a balancing act... And having been there, I'm hopeful that my advice would help... But people coming from a drug, opioid, history - May be extra sensitive to being told, or nagged, about their substance abuse - from family & friends. Folks who discovered kratom - the Honeymoon period wears off - and they're right back into a Habit (and many didn't do their Research about kratom, Floor and Ceiling effect,) ~ then, denial sets in. We constantly hear, from those who are NOT satisfied w/ kratom and struggling to figure it out.

We also must keep in mind, CPP, Chronic Pain Patients - who are truly stuck between a rock & hard place since kratom just isn't as strong as full opioids - They are frustrated when kratom "stops working" & tough to hear advice to take less.