Potentiating

[fusedflora]

There's a lot of information regarding potentiators, and I'd like to help folks understand some key differences.

We often label things like turmeric as a potentiator, but when we consider potentiate, that typically means make something more potent, and in that case, turmeric is not. I'd actually break most things we label as "potentiators" into actually 3 different things:
potentiators - those things that actually interact with the kratom and make it more potent
tolerance reducer - those things that make the kratom feel more potent due to a reduction in tolerance
bioavailability enhancers - those things that allow your body to absorb more alkaloids from kratom

The importance of this, is that each one has a lot of differences on how your body responds, but more importantly, determines WHEN you should take each in relation to your kratom

Take turmeric for instance, we often label it as a potentiator. It has effects to reset receptors, but when taken with/before kratom, it can also effect your burn negatively. Turmeric is often used with curcumin to further activate the turmeric. Together they are a great antioxidant. Do you know what your body needs to convert mitra to 7HOM and mitrapseud (the stronger alkaloids)? It needs free radical oxygens (what antioxidants get rid of). Additionally, the receptor binding that the turmeric can relief, also can remove the binding effect that kratom has. So while it will reduce some tolerance, it will also block some of the effects, and negatively affect the body's ability to convert mitra to 7HOM (again lots of variables to get net gain). Taken before or with your kratom, this tends to actually not hit the receptors (as they're already engaged with the mitra, 7ohm, and mitrapseudo), and depending on your diet, is restricting how much mitra is converted to the stronger alkaloids. This isn't much of a net gain if any and doesn't potentiate at all in this circumstance. Turmeric is more a tolerance reducer, and should not really be taken near a dose, yet it is usually labeled as such.

Though one might still take with a dose and have a positive outcome (each of our responses are different), the best all around time to take turmeric would be between doses, preferably the ones with the biggest time gap. This allows for the reset without blocking the effects or reducing strong alkaloid conversion (net gain).

Citric acid is another example. While it is commonly put onto the kratom to break some of the cell walls (bioavailability enhancer), after this has occurred, the acid can react with the alkaloid (base) and nullify some if you've used too much. But there's another excellent use for it. So the body processes alkaloids best in an alkaline state, I.E. the liver is much more productive at absorbing mitra and converting 7OHM. So one's diet largely affect bioavailability and how one's body absorbs alkaloids. Though an acid, citric acid is metabolized as basic within the body, putting you into an alkaline state (if taken alone or with neutral or other alkaline diets). This allows you to absorb and feel more alkaloids if taken at the right time. The citric acid taken with the kratom dose has already reacted to the plant matter and changed at this point (it broke down the walls), and is not as strong as it once was, so one should not consider that the citric used to break down the plant matter will have much affect on the alkalinity of the body. Not only that, but you need to be alkaline before the kratom is absorbed, not getting alkaline as it's being absorbed. A better method would be to use some citric acid on the powder to extract some of the alkaloids (not too much too reach diminishing returns and nullify them), but an hour or two before have a big serving of something with citric acid to put the body in an alkaline state. I would almost argue that consuming the citrus is more beneficial that mixing with powder, but that largely depends on diet and how much added sugar.

Short, potentiators need to be taken with kratom to have an affect, tolerance reducers need to be taken long before and long after to have maximum time to reset, and bioavailability enhancers need to be taken before kratom to achieve the best effects.

There's plenty of things labeled as potentiating, but one needs to understand how it affects both the body and the alkaloids to know if it is actually beneficial or not at all. If you consider something in one of these three categories, it's easier to determine the when.

[the_spookiest]

great post! there is always so much talk and debate about the WHENS and the WHATS of potentiating. Very helpful to distinguish the difference between potentiation and bioavailability assistance. many folks think these are the same.

the talk about the turmeric/curcumin effect has made me want to start taking some extract at night before bed. Ive never tried this before dose and I guess Im glad I didnt waste the time doing so. It only took a couple days of trying Agmatine Sulfate before realizing it effected the feeling of my burns without the benefit, but I wasnt trying to reduce or anything. I take it now before bed like twice a week.

The citrus pre-dose is a great one and I would also agree that that is probably as (or, more for some) efficient as soaking your dose in a few tsp of citric acid for ten minutes. I make a morning smoothie with a bunch of fresh/frozen fruits, and some extra lemon juice or pineapple juice leaves me sort of like a walking potentiator.

I am sure many folks will be asking questions on this thread but just saying nice info and thanks for all ya do!

[Jestrice2002]

Great post! I've got a degree in biochem, and seeing people talk about "potentiators" sometimes drives me crazy. You broke it down perfectly.

[Love_Redz]

I agree citric acid before you take your dose will help more than with your dose it’s all about preparing the body and mind to get better effects, Turmeric is great for joint pain but not to potentiate IMO,so I figure if the body feels good the mind feels good, A placebo effect takes effect , so people could think it’s potentiation , I love lemon water so maybe that’s why my doses hit very good for me, I’ve drank alkaline water when my wife had cancer and doses felt cleaner but I never connected the dots , thank you very much for the post, it’s a very good one

[zachdank]

Super good post. Thanks for the info bru

[Cbest011]

Thank you for this! I have lemon juice about a half hour to an hour before I take my morning dose and I notice a difference. And also at my job we sell all sorts of alkaline waters. I did notice a difference one day when I was drinking one all day at work. I too didn’t make that connection, but yes of course!

The more you know! Thank you fused for this!

[mitragy9]

Strange my doses always feel stronger if I take tumeric 15 mins before.. however my turmeric has 15mg of bioperine in it which is known to potentiate opioids by increasing bioavailability. I also seem to get good effects if I take black seed oil about 10-15 mins after taking my dosage of kratom. Never noticed much taking the BSO it 20 - 30 mins before.

[KBull]

Awesome post fused florA. I don’t know why I haven’t tried your leaf. You always have so much knowledge and I like my vendor to have knowledge As if usually shows in quality of leaf. As for turmeric, I have never tried or researched it too much. Any one compare it to agmatine? Agmatine definitely effects my dose negatively if taken around a dose. I take it every other night maximum, a tiny amount, and have had great results that way. Interested in learning more about turmeric and peoples experience. Thanks!

[Burninator]

I, too, appreciate this post goodman.

I’m curious about people’s experiences with grapefruit juice as a potentiator—especially in comparison with citric acid.

[fusedflora]

I, too, appreciate this post goodman.

I’m curious about people’s experiences with grapefruit juice as a potentiator—especially in comparison with citric acid.

White grapefruit juice specifically contains a lot of furanocoumarin. This is known to suppress CYP3A4, which is involved in metabolizing kratom. Not only does the citrus in white grapefruit juice prime the body in an alkaline state, it allows the alkaloids to better pass into the bloodstream by suppressing CYP3A4. White grapefruit juice on paper, is perhaps a potentiator. However, the juice has to be fresh from fruit, as furanocoumarin quickly breaks down in picked fruit and more so in prepackaged juices.

Though a lot of grapefruit juices contain it, white grapefruit contains quite a bit more and the others are nearly negligible.

Awesome post fused florA. I don’t know why I haven’t tried your leaf. You always have so much knowledge and I like my vendor to have knowledge As if usually shows in quality of leaf. As for turmeric, I have never tried or researched it too much. Any one compare it to agmatine? Agmatine definitely effects my dose negatively if taken around a dose. I take it every other night maximum, a tiny amount, and have had great results that way. Interested in learning more about turmeric and peoples experience. Thanks!

Yes, agmatine's effects on WD are well studied. Though no specific studies have been done with it, I'd suspect it is most effective far away from kratom, just like turmeric. First, the amount of ions it creates as it's metabolized would take precedence over binding. This would limit the conversion of mitra to stronger alks. The other concern would be it's affect on arterial pressure. Face value it doesn't directly affect, but indirectly it would certainly reduce the speed at which the alks would get to and pass the blood brain barrier. And last, agmatine affects a lot of systems in the body. In saying, though it's easy to see how it would affect mitra, not all the effects from kratom come solely from the mitra. It's hard to determine exactly what the 10-12 predominate alks respond to the system change of agmatine. There's so many variables to consider, but I completely agree with you; when I have taken it near kratom, it negatively has affected my burn, both before, during and after. I have not noticed issues with it when taken before bed (3 hours after and 6-8 hours before my morning dose).

I suspect it has little to no impacts on actual potentiating, bioavailability, or tolerance reduction, but is more likely a one trick pony is assisting with helping RLS, or other issues folks feel with WDs.

[Love_Redz]

I love grapefruit but like lemon water I drink through the day not Necessarily with my dose, but right now my fruit is green have to wait til ripe lol so there’s that , I just have to wait I guess
For the record don’t over do it I leave out the lemon water when I drink fresh squeezed grapefruit don’t want to over alkaline the body can lead to many problems if you do take with does don’t do it with every dose if you over alkaline you could get tremors, lightheadedness I see posts complaining about that, could be That the body is over alkalined or hypoglycemia or both much love to all
Sorry for the highjack fused

[Burninator]

Thanks for both the responses. Would cold pressed be a viable alternative to actual grapefruits?

[Love_Redz]

Thanks for both the responses. Would cold pressed be a viable alternative to actual grapefruits?

To be perfectly honest I’ve never tried cold pressed grapefruit but now you’ve struck my Curiosity I may try it out while I wait for my grapefruit to ripe

[BallzDeep9]

3 different things:

• potentiators - those things that actually interact with the kratom and make it more potent
• tolerance reducer - those things that make the kratom feel more potent due to a reduction in tolerance
• bioavailability enhancers - those things that allow your body to absorb more alkaloids from kratom

Short, potentiators need to be taken with kratom to have an affect, tolerance reducers need to be taken long before and long after to have maximum time to reset, and bioavailability enhancers need to be taken before kratom to achieve the best effects.

Hall Of Fame post, Fused Flora!

Great advice and you frame it so easy to understand.. So many questions all over the Internet about "potentiators".. AS IF, kratom isn't good enough or strong enough on its own ?? Well, we know many are not satisfied with kratom for whatever reason. Some have, a history of heavy opiates... were told, or sold on the idea, that kratom is = something else? Hey... kratom is kratom, is great!

Hard to say, percentage wise, how much these help? Maybe some day a scientist will study & find out lol.. I'm a fan of bioavailability enhancers ~ yes there's a trade off # time spent prepping, Red Bubble freezing, etc.. Tea brewing falls in that category. Man I made a kick-ass batch of Tea this week ~ let it sit 2X days in freezer and like 3+ days in fridge... really let the powder soak for days. Same is recommended for making Extract.. So after nearly 1 week of acid soak - used ½ and ½ crushed Leaf !! Brew the Tea 45 min w/ Aeropress filter. Boom! Very strong batch.

Tolerance Reducers - in Reddit r/nootropics a post this week about Agmatine. Good research. They are using this stuff to up-regulate receptors for all kinds of things.. Worth reading: HERE - I cycle my Agmatine about one week per month. Only take before bedtime. It does work! Those who seek pain relief, have found it makes kratom more effective.

Lots of knowledge on Reddit r/kratom regarding CYP3A4 inhibitors, CYP450 enzymes, etc. yes WGFJ also Tagamet, works to potentiate but also those have drawbacks which imo make them not workable long-term... For me, right now I'm taking too many other drugs to even mess with Liver enzymes.. Many drugs carry warnings on the bottle, against Tagamet or GFJ... another combo is DXM cough syrup, which does boost the sedative, zombie, effect of kratom - for those who want that effect ?? Again DXM is not really useful long term. Black Pepper/ bioperine/ is helpful but, there again, I'd be a little concerned about doing this daily? I got a bottle from Swanson & use it maybe once a week, to enhance a late serving...

[Cbest011]

Fused, or anyone else who has knowledge, what do you think of magnesium? Is it a good one? I’ve seen it talked about before somewhere but in your categories you’ve listed, would it be a after dose, pre dose or between doses to take? I take it at night before I sleep but haven’t thought of what it could do for Kratom.

Thanks!

[euphemism]

What a great and informative post. So what things qualify as true potentiators, as opposed to bioavailability enhancers or tolerance reducers?

In which of these 3 categories does alcohol fall, if any?

[Burninator]

What a great and informative post. So what things qualify as true potentiators, as opposed to bioavailability enhancers or tolerance reducers?

In which of these 3 categories does alcohol fall, if any? How harmful would 1-2 drinks be with an every-other-day 5g dose?

Alcohol pretty consistently inhibits the effects of Kratom for me.

[CatfatherB]

What a great and informative post. So what things qualify as true potentiators, as opposed to bioavailability enhancers or tolerance reducers?

In which of these 3 categories does alcohol fall, if any? How harmful would 1-2 drinks be with an every-other-day 5g dose?

Didn't harm me any!

[BallzDeep9]

Magnesium absolutely - just for help with digestion, but also does something for effects? At least many on Reddit say so.. Magnesium is the ONE thing I take with each and every serving of Kratom. Mag Citrate.. and sometimes at night I use Mag l-Threonate.

Alcohol ? Just does not mix with kratom ? Again check Reddit, read dozens of stories ~ guys with chronic alcohol problems who beat their booze habit WITH the help of kratom! Personally I used to enjoy a few beers.. I somehow "lost my taste" for alcohol. Strange but true.

[Livingwell7774]

Wow. I’ve been taking turmeric tea before my dose at night almost every day and have noticed my effects from kratom fell off the map the past month or so. Could this be why? I’m gunna now lay off it for a few days and see if it improves. My gdp has not changed so I doubt it’s a tolerance thing.

[Livingwell7774]

I’m not just putting this together and tell me if this might make sense. About 8-9 (Early June) weeks after I started drinking turmeric daily, is right around the time when the effects I was getting from kratom greatly diminished. I wondering if there’s a correlation here. I read that it can take up to 8 weeks for curcumin to build up in your body. Has it built it too much in my body to the point of nullifying kratom for me? I’m going to stop drinking turmeric for a few days and see what happens. I seriously have been drinking it almost every day since March. My gdp hasn’t really changed since then and March-Late May I had been getting great effects.

[Burninator]

Magnesium absolutely - just for help with digestion, but also does something for effects? At least many on Reddit say so.. Magnesium is the ONE thing I take with each and every serving of Kratom. Mag Citrate.. and sometimes at night I use Mag l-Threonate.

Alcohol ? Just does not mix with kratom ? Again check Reddit, read dozens of stories ~ guys with chronic alcohol problems who beat their booze habit WITH the help of kratom! Personally I used to enjoy a few beers.. I somehow "lost my taste" for alcohol. Strange but true.

How many mgs of magnesium do you take with each serving?

[acejestyr15]

Magnesium absolutely - just for help with digestion, but also does something for effects? At least many on Reddit say so.. Magnesium is the ONE thing I take with each and every serving of Kratom. Mag Citrate.. and sometimes at night I use Mag l-Threonate.

Alcohol ? Just does not mix with kratom ? Again check Reddit, read dozens of stories ~ guys with chronic alcohol problems who beat their booze habit WITH the help of kratom! Personally I used to enjoy a few beers.. I somehow "lost my taste" for alcohol. Strange but true.

How many mgs of magnesium do you take with each serving?

I take 125-250mg Mag Citrate before my bed time dose either every night or every other night....

[Burninator]

Magnesium absolutely - just for help with digestion, but also does something for effects? At least many on Reddit say so.. Magnesium is the ONE thing I take with each and every serving of Kratom. Mag Citrate.. and sometimes at night I use Mag l-Threonate.

Alcohol ? Just does not mix with kratom ? Again check Reddit, read dozens of stories ~ guys with chronic alcohol problems who beat their booze habit WITH the help of kratom! Personally I used to enjoy a few beers.. I somehow "lost my taste" for alcohol. Strange but true.

How many mgs of magnesium do you take with each serving?

I take 125-250mg Mag Citrate before my bed time dose either every night or every other night....

Thanks Ace. What benefits have you noticed from supplementing mag?

[acejestyr15]

Definitely helps with digestion and keeping things moving like others have said!! Also, if I remember correctly, Mag Cit in particular preps the system for absorption of alkaloids. Although, I have only used Kratom in brewed tea form since the new year so absorption is no longer an issues or concern for me personally. It also helps with relaxation and calming of nerves making it much easier to have good sleep.... In which, I can use all the help I can get being I'm an insomniac. So, that's why I specifically use Mag 20 to 30min prior to my bed time dose.... Plus then when I wake up for work in the morning I can pretty much always use the bathroom smoothly as opposed to straining or even barely making there in time which happens easily if too much Mag is taken.

Hope this is helpful!!!

[Burninator]

It is indeed!

[harrycanuk]

Magnessium Malate (malic acid) and grapefruit juice

[CatfatherB]

Even though I haven't done this in quite a while, I've taken Tagamet a little before or with my dose, however in chronic use it is known to cause man boobs.

[HeatherLelane]

Totally noticed turmeric/curcumin killing my dose and thought I was just crazy. Thanks.

[CatfatherB]

I still get a chuckle out of people on reddit saying they always take the tumeric half an hour before..

[fusedflora]

I still get a chuckle out of people on reddit saying they always take the tumeric half an hour before..

I chuckle at a lot at what I see on reddit. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of very useful information there, just very difficult to sort through the BS to get at the reality.

[CatfatherB]

I still get a chuckle out of people on reddit saying they always take the tumeric half an hour before..

I chuckle at a lot at what I see on reddit. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of very useful information there, just very difficult to sort through the BS to get at the reality.

That may partly be my fault, I leave a lot of troll comments!!

[euphemism]

Is anyone knowledgeable about cat's claw, either through experience or an understanding of biochemistry?

[BallzDeep9]

wOw. Just realized, nobody had mentioned Ginseng as a potentiator?

Certainly 1 of most well-known herbal supplements, considered an "adaptogen" for many healthy qualities. Stimulant, immune system booster, and even lowers blood sugar maybe? Check it out. Ginseng definitely gives a stimulating boost, when taken along with kratom... One of my favorites!! Can actually be used for energy, as an alternative to caffeine.

Reddit: Ginseng makes kratom better!

https://www.reddit.com/r/kratom/comment ... atom_need/

I have found that ginseng extract is a great potentiator. I use Gaia which you can buy at most health food stores. It gives you a lift. The thing about ginseng is that it's an adaptogen and it will either give you a lift if you need one or calm you down if you feel too stressed. I work in a health food store in St. Louis and I am educating myself about healthy alternatives to drugs every day. But I am not an expert. Please research any advice you get.

[Laika]

wOw. Just realized, nobody had mentioned Ginseng as a potentiator?

Certainly 1 of most well-known herbal supplements, considered an "adaptogen" for many healthy qualities. Stimulant, immune system booster, and even lowers blood sugar maybe? Check it out. Ginseng definitely gives a stimulating boost, when taken along with kratom... One of my favorites!! Can actually be used for energy, as an alternative to caffeine.

Reddit: Ginseng makes kratom better!

https://www.reddit.com/r/kratom/comment ... atom_need/

I have found that ginseng extract is a great potentiator. I use Gaia which you can buy at most health food stores. It gives you a lift. The thing about ginseng is that it's an adaptogen and it will either give you a lift if you need one or calm you down if you feel too stressed. I work in a health food store in St. Louis and I am educating myself about healthy alternatives to drugs every day. But I am not an expert. Please research any advice you get.

what type of ginseng?

[BallzDeep9]

I prefer the strongest ginseng: Korean Red Ginseng root... aka Panax ginseng. There is much written online.. they describe the Korean Red as more warm, for pain relief... vs American ginseng as cool feeling and milder... both are popular. https://healthyeating.sfgate.com/korean ... 10752.html

I enjoy chewing the Korean Red slices. Kind of like coffee, not bitter not sweet, the flavor grows on you.. Also, ginseng IS a big industry in South Korea. They package many liquid extracts, tiny bottles, also teas in tea-bags and granule tea.

[Laika]

I prefer the strongest ginseng: Korean Red Ginseng root... aka Panax ginseng. There is much written online.. they describe the Korean Red as more warm, for pain relief... vs American ginseng as cool feeling and milder... both are popular. https://healthyeating.sfgate.com/korean ... 10752.html

I enjoy chewing the Korean Red slices. Kind of like coffee, not bitter not sweet, the flavor grows on you.. Also, ginseng IS a big industry in South Korea. They package many liquid extracts, tiny bottles, also teas in tea-bags and granule tea.

Good to know. Thanks

[ybanurse247]

Totally noticed turmeric/curcumin killing my dose and thought I was just crazy. Thanks.

Wow! I guess I'm a straight up sucker cause I read tumeric was a GOOD potentiator for kratom before your dose....damn. Was wondering why I stopped getting anything from my burns and thought it was a tolerance issue but have only been taking Kratom since May so.......damn

[CatfatherB]

Totally noticed turmeric/curcumin killing my dose and thought I was just crazy. Thanks.

Wow! I guess I'm a straight up sucker cause I read tumeric was a GOOD potentiator for kratom before your dose....damn. Was wondering why I stopped getting anything from my burns and thought it was a tolerance issue but have only been taking Kratom since May so.......damn

If you started kratom in May, your quit getting good burns because the honeymoon is over, the tumeric before the dose didn't help either..

[fusedflora]

Part 2:
So I will not claim that some things can not potentiate for certain people, there are exceptions to every rule, especially with kratom. What I would say, is that looking at effects and separating into these 3 areas will rule out ones that may not work for most. In pharmacology, a potentiator is a substance, herb, or chemical that intensifies the effects of a given substance. This definition implies that all three as I label above CAN potentiate, but it would depend on WHEN ones takes it.

However, I feel the definition is lacking. Take water for example. Water intake positively affects metabolism and faster metabolism with good hydration could intensify the effects, thus H2O is a potentiator..... Though we commonly do not consider it to be. I would argue that it increases bioavailability and is best left BEFORE a dose. We can easily rope the air we breath (O2) into a potentiator as well as a slew of other things affecting general metabolism.... The definition is too vague for most folks here, especially in what we're talking about... Magnesium, agmatine, milk thistle, theanine, etc.... Not including the not so safe ones such as alcohol, diazepam, barbiturates..... I'm not trying to be the reword the definition, what I am trying to do is help folks understand that there are clear separations on how something effects, that perhaps what they have read on potentiators is a bit misleading if taken at face value.

For discussion sake, let's say you take an Aspirin and a few hours later some kratom. Certainly, one may feel much better now, but did the aspirin potentiate the kratom? Did the kratom potentiate the aspirin? What I'm getting at is that if one looks at specific effects, some do stack, so when reading a study, make sure it is speaking to the how.... is the substance actually making the alks more potent, is it reducing tolerance to make you feel more, is it making the alks more bioavailable so one has more in the system, or is it having a different effect entirely, just stacking onto the effects you're seeking?

Lookup "magnesium potentiator" on google, the first results will pop up that it potentiates kratom. I'll not argue that it can't make the feeling more intense in some people, but the effect at which it helps, I would label it as increasing bioavailability and more tolerance reducing. I would not label it as a potentiator, just as I wouldn't label water.

For instance https://pubs.asahq.org/anesthesiology/a ... -Effect-in shows the subjects experience less pain with mu receptor stimulation and magnesium. However the control failed to test magnesium's effects on pain independently of the other substances, that study is here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK507245/. So looking at magnesium potentiating the effects, perhaps it did, but perhaps it stacked......

Magnesium affects a lot of different things in the body, being an essential mineral. The most important of which is that all those digestive juices require magnesium. There's hundreds of studies and articles showing this. Healthy metabolism obviously increases your efficiency to absorb more alks into your system and process/use them, but again.... I wouldn't consider air or water a potentiator, would you?

There's many claims about the NMDA receptor antagonists, but https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14592689/ would show that they have no effect, unless at extreme doses. Combined with the article above, showing magnesium can create analgesia alone, this leads one to say it likely does not increase potency, but stacks in that department.

Yes, magnesium decreases the dopamine response in opioids, but most of us know that dopamine, RLS, etc.. are some of the leading contributors to tolerance.... It's easy to see how it would reduce tolerance is this effect.

One could claim magnesium has a lot of effects on the brain receptors, etc... Though I would say that kratom has 40 or so alkaloids, agonists and antagonists alike, not just the mitra affect the mu receptors... So where studies will show it compared to morphine, there are none to compare against the vast amounts of things in kratom. Short, magnesium may eventually be discovered to have an affect on one of these, but there's just too many variables here and not enough studies to prove/disprove. I would consider this neutral, no increase or decrease at this point.

So does magnesium potentiate? By definition, in some people yes, but it is entirely dependent on WHEN, just like water or air... The method it does is increasing metabolism... but would need to be absorbed and ready for the body to use, thus I would argue it is for bioavailability.