Behind The Scenes Of The Kratom Industry

[herbalhippie]

maybe this Article should be pinned

I pinned it immediately, Ballz.

[gumbyke1]

Keep it coming! Explain the truth behind lab testing you mentioned on discord. You rock man! We need this window of truth..many folks are making it up as they go or working with what farmers tell them. Without evidence based research we are simply blind.

Thanks! I had planned on adding a section about lab testing in a later post. Keep a look out for it soon on this thread!

[gumbyke1]

WOW, Gumbyke, truth to power, it must have taken a while to write up such a comprehensive information dump.

What are your thoughts on the so called Oven Dried Kratom like Hudson Valley Botanical's Green OV?

From a sample I received, it seemed VERY potent and smooth. What is your expert opinion on that?

Also, perhaps a silly question, but I have overbought the Greens and as a result have no Reds. Reds ferments make me sleepy, white/greens do not, so I can't really take it in the evening. Is it possible to put a bit of my Green out in the Florida sun for a day or two to achieve a red ferment?
I could then blend it with my Green for a balanced White? Will it work?

Btw, I agree that it is quite obvious that the Facebook is a dead end, nothing but scammers and drama, I am so glad that I have found this place!

Education is the key. Time is money and a lot of it was invested in this wealth of knowledge. Thank You so very much for this!

I'm hesitant to share my thoughts on any specifics vendors product in this context. I personally have also never tried Hudson Valley's Green OV, so I certainly wouldnt want to weigh in. However, I can say that we have done many processing experiments, and oven drying was one that we played around with. With that said, I can share what I know from those tests:

1. We tried oven drying to see if bringing the leaf to a dry state rapidly after harvesting would have any impact on quality. We started at higher temperatures to see how fast we could dry them. We also tried different variations like leaving the door cracked to let out moisture, cooking on a rack vs baking sheet, etc.. We found that high temperatures just gave the leaves a very unattractive brown color and gave off an almost burnt flavor. Most importantly, we saw no noticeable benefits to the leaves effects of this method.

2. When we brought the temperatures down around 170 the leaves seemed to fare much better, but again we saw no noticeable difference other than they dried considerably faster. (I don't recall the exact temperature, it was a while ago. It was whatever the lowest we could get on the ovens we were using).

With that said, using ovens to dry kratom was just highly impractical for us. If we had seen some major breakthroughs with the final product, I suppose we would have invested in further testing but nothing was really showing promise. I don't know how anyone would do it practically. Kratom does dry fast in the ovens, but it seems like it would be challenging to scale to any significant level.

I want to be clear that I'm not at saying it's not possible or anyone that claims to do it is being dishonest. I'm just saying that I don't know enough about it to know. Maybe they have some kind of high capacity conveyor oven - that is the route I would have gone if I were a vendor trying to market oven dried kratom. There very well may be plenty of ways to do it, and there may be some benefits we missed. We just didn't continue to explore it further because of our initial results made it a pointless venture in our eyes.

[gumbyke1]

I can say that I have figured out a GREAT deal, but I can't say that I have fully satisfied my calling. I'm hoping that my trip to Borneo at the end of this year will fill in the gaps, but I've also felt that many times before . After all of this, the only thing I can absolutely say I am certain of- is that things are much more complicated than they appear to be on the surface.

For anyone thinking "Who's this guy"- Gumby has more experience as a consumer, than most anyone on this board.

There are FACTS - And there are opinions. Of course much about kratom is a mystery.. maybe this Article should be pinned ? Many, many people who discover MM will find it amazing and helpful. One FACT that's easy to observe... things change over time. The kratom business has changed. Just over the past 18 months, Demand has exploded - leading to changes in Indo.

I hope you make your trip to Borneo, as soon as possible. Yes it should fill-in some knowledge gaps. We DO have direct accounts from those who've been there.. I have bunches of photo's sent to me, last year by a guy known as British Mitra Genie. He traveled to Pontianak... And he went up the river! Danny visited Hulu Kapuas, and other small villages.

Badger Silver on Reddit, has been there twice. Much information about colors, and strains, have been detailed on Reddit and covered in This Post. It seems like old news at this point, that strains are fake, and colors are manufactured - What we still don't know exactly, is HOW the various drying process leads to Fast or Slow effects?

Changes to the business, would include more diversity in harvesting and processing. Yes there WAS a Supply crunch, after the USA November 2017 Panic led to huge Demand. As the # of USA consumers boomed, so did the # of Indo's working to harvest, process, transport, broker and "hustle" the product...

However to suggest Blue Tarp drying methods are the norm or represent the majority of Indo suppliers? Sensational yes, but I'd like to think there are NOW many, diverse, supply channels.. OK we've seen a terrible video of dirty kratom. Now check out THIS YouTube video of JongKong Village. Obviously, they have made an investment here:

Jong Kong Village, Borneo = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWjGE0P3mos

Hey Ballz, I think most of everything you said is ... umm, well said. I wonder where we would all be if we didnt have you to help us all see through the clouds

I realize from reading your comment that it may come across like I'm Chicken Little screaming the sky is falling, I think perhaps I could do a better job of not being so in your face with some of the information. I think part of that may be that this is a very unfinished post, I have a lot of good and bad to still go through. Even still I hope that with the bad so far that it isn't overlooked that I've stated there are responsible vendors and suppliers that do things in a way that would be acceptable to us all. I certainly hope that I don't paint a picture that all Indonesians involved in this industry are unsavory characters... that would be incredibly inaccurate.

Some of the most honest and hardworking people I know are in this industry on the Indonesian side of things. Some of those folks I would consider family... it would be a great disservice to them and this community if I didn't make that clear. I'd like to share a message I received just yesterday as a perfect example of that. The picture attached is a message from one of my partners over there who jumps through all kinds of hoops to execute these crazy processing methods we come up with (trust me... we try anything in search of the perfect leaf, lol). I asked him how much he was going to charge per kilogram of kratom for a very unusual and difficult drying method that I know will take a lot of labor. From his first response, I thought I had misunderstood due to a bad translation (we use google to translate everything), so I asked him again a few minutes later. His response was very much the same the second time.

I HOPE PEOPLE LOOK AT THIS PHOTO BECAUSE THIS IS AMAZING



Google translate makes it broken English so Ill spell out his reply in case it wasn't clear. He said I can decide what to pay him, the price is up to me. Let me give you a little more context here... I am asking this man to dry a large quantity of leaves, using a very labor intensive method, that requires electricity and air conditioning (air conditioning is not common in parts of Indonesia). He only has access to electricity at night time and his response is "I will figure it out, you decide what to pay me". Oh and guess what, he is going to document every step of it so I can trust it's being done to my specifications. Wow. I mean can you even imagine any business person in the US adopting that attitude? I am humbled by some of the friends I have made over there... truly humbled. I hope nobody reads my posts and assumes I have a lack of respect or appreciation for the great folks out there.

You are absolutely correct that not every farmer or harvesting village is processing their leaves in the manner I showed, but I am absolutely certain that there is a lot of that going on. I planned on posting more photo examples as it's relevant to the posts I make later, but I may reconsider if the general consensus is that I am creating hysteria on the subject. Im very open to feedback on what everyone wants to see/learn about... I definitely don't want to post things that upset or hurt the community. Either way, I appreciate you giving me inspiration to reflect on it.

I think something that we should all keep in context is something you actually said on another post. People are not getting sick left and right from ingesting kratom. I've been an everyday user of kratom for a very, very long time and I myself have only been sick once as a result of contaminated kratom (in another post I can go into how I knew it was contaminated before somebody points out that I can't be sure it was the kratom). The fact is that most people using kratom have probably never received any kind of illness from it. When I began to learn about some of these more unsanitary practices, I kind of shrugged it off at first thinking that must be some random backwoods stuff that isn't very common. However, as I became more and more educated about it I could clearly see that it's not a one-off thing. It certainly gave me pause with my personal use and caused me to do a lot more digging/investigating into the people I work with. It didn't stop me from using kratom, but I think I'm a lot better off for knowing what I need to watch out for. It's uncomfortable and I don't like it, but its what I know to be true.

I think it's just good for the community to be aware that it exists, and we all have our own reasons why. Say if I had a compromised immune system or something, I would certainly want to know about potential risks so I can make informed decisions.

What is really tricky is that even some of the more well known "trusted" sources in Indonesia can be misleading... mostly in the name of profits. I've personally have caught one of these well-known suppliers in acts of dishonesty. Some may consider the lies minor, but they revealed to me that they too were not above attempting to misrepresent things when they believed it would benefit them financially.

With that said, I think my next addition to this post will be to share some of the common "hustles" that some of the Indo suppliers run.

[gumbyke1]

However to suggest Blue Tarp drying methods are the norm, or represent the majority of Indo suppliers? Sensational yes, but I'd like to think there are NOW many, diverse, supply channels.. OK we've seen a terrible video of dirty kratom.. Now check out THIS YouTube video of JongKong Village. Obviously, they have made an investment here:

Jong Kong Village, Borneo = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWjGE0P3mos

Okay, your link to that farm was really awesome timing. After I replied to your post a second ago I clicked the video link again because that farm looked familiar. I know the guy who owns that plantation, his name is Rafa.

Rafa also uses a different company name so I didnt recognize the Jong right away. I laughed so hard when I realized it because I am literally waiting for a call from him right now. As a matter of fact, I was replying to your post to kill time while I was waiting. He called me earlier while I was giving the kiddos a bath, lol. Wow, his ear must be burning! Check it out

Oh, and in case anyone was wondering, Rafa is not one of my partners. I have never bought anything from him, he is just an acquaintance.

[Theanine]

What we still don't know exactly, is HOW the various drying process leads to Fast or Slow effects?

All GREAT info here. Correct me if I am wrong though, but isn't that already well known? Fermenting processes a part of the Mitragynine in the plant into its oxidized form of the 7-Hydroxymitragynine which in itself differs from the Mitragynine not only in potency, but also in effects. Mitragynine's effects tends to be far more stimulating than those of the 7-Hydroxymitragynine, hence there is a much slower affect from the red "strains" oxidized via a fermentation process of differing intensities, which of course produce a variation in the oxidized (hydrolyzed) counterpart. The rest though, is indeed a mystery.....

With that said, using ovens to dry kratom was just highly impractical for us. If we had seen some major breakthroughs with the final product, I suppose we would have invested in further testing but nothing was really showing promise. I don't know how anyone would do it practically. Kratom does dry fast in the ovens, but it seems like it would be challenging to scale to any significant level.

This is their own description of that strain:

We are now carrying Green OV!

The leaves of this strain are dried differently. It’s done in a large industrial oven rather then with the sun out in the open.

[gumbyke1]

What we still don't know exactly, is HOW the various drying process leads to Fast or Slow effects?

All GREAT info here. Correct me if I am wrong though, but isn't that already well known? Fermenting processes a part of the Mitragynine in the plant into its oxidized form of the 7-Hydroxymitragynine which in itself differs from the Mitragynine not only in potency, but also in effects. Mitragynine's effects tends to be far more stimulating than those of the 7-Hydroxymitragynine, hence there is a much slower affect from the red "strains" oxidized via a fermentation process of differing intensities, which of course produce a variation in the oxidized (hydrolyzed) counterpart. The rest though, is indeed a mystery.....

I think the answer to this is yes, no, and maybe? There are so many questions about the role those two alkaloids do and don't play in the total scheme of things. As we all know there are some 25-ish alkaloids in kratom that are believed to have a hand in its effects. In my personal non-scientific and probably wrong opinion, I think the other alkaloids play a bigger role then what we currently assume. To be honest, there is always new info coming out that I cant keep up. Here are a few things that I was stuck on the last time I researched the whole topic.

- It is has been long believed that humans metabolize mitragynine to 7ohm in the liver. However, there have been multiple studies in animals that prove the opposite, they process 7ohm to mitragynine. Then there is this study - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24841968

- In a widely recognized paper they claim that at a typical dose of raw kratom plant, exposure to 7-OH is so little that it is sub-pharmacological. As a matter of fact, the amount of 7-OHM in 8grams of kratom is about 5 times less than the amount needed for the beginning of any kind of analgesic effects In some batches of kratom from mature trees, the amount of 7-ohm is so little that it is unmeasurable. If you want to get all nerd scientist about it, see the link below:

(6.1 in https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/9ba5da_5 ... 29a844.pdf)

- here was a study that said in a lab environment they were able to convert roughly 8% of its mitragynine content into 7ohm with air, light and phytochemicals. See page s-9 on this report:

https://pubs.acs.org/doi/suppl/10.1021/ ... si_002.pdf

With that said, it is such a little amount that I doubt that is doing much, especially if the Kruege study I listed here is accurate.


I'm sticking to my guns and saying that there are more things at play than Mit and his buddy 7ohm, primarily because it's much easier to justify that position Seriously though, every time I fell like we make sense of this something else comes out to contradict it.

My brain hurts, I'm going to bed:D

[javagurl62]

Thanks for this! Very informative.

[jabro70]

Yes, thanks for doing this Gumby. It’s obvious that it was a lot of work.

[BallzDeep9]

What we still don't know exactly, is HOW the various drying process leads to Fast or Slow effects?

Correct me if I am wrong though, but isn't that already well known? Fermenting processes a part of the Mitragynine in the plant into its oxidized form of the 7-Hydroxymitragynine which in itself differs from the Mitragynine not only in potency, but also in effects. Mitragynine's effects tends to be far more stimulating than those of the 7-Hydroxymitragynine, hence there is a much slower affect from the red "strains" ....

OK, yes, yes, sorry I SHOULD have said "HOW the drying process leads to Faster effects"

Yes we know that sun drying/ fermenting = slower Red. Fine. But... HOW do you make Mitragynine faster? There's basically two colors green & red. There's ONE main alkaloid, plus 7-Ohm in trace amounts. Green is dried mostly indoors, Red mostly outdoors. Then.... What is a White and HOW do you turn already strong Greens.. into a faster White?

I have my own theories about how Whites are made. Based on what I've heard, people I know, photos I've seen, etc etc same as Gumby. I don't believe White is 1- A leaf color, 2- Made by mixing reds and greens together. So... before I reveal the secret. Anyone else? What makes a strong fast White?

[Theanine]

What we still don't know exactly, is HOW the various drying process leads to Fast or Slow effects?

Correct me if I am wrong though, but isn't that already well known? Fermenting processes a part of the Mitragynine in the plant into its oxidized form of the 7-Hydroxymitragynine which in itself differs from the Mitragynine not only in potency, but also in effects. Mitragynine's effects tends to be far more stimulating than those of the 7-Hydroxymitragynine, hence there is a much slower affect from the red "strains" ....

OK, yes, yes, sorry I SHOULD have said "HOW the drying process leads to Faster effects"

Yes we know that sun drying/ fermenting = slower Red. Fine. But... HOW do you make Mitragynine faster? There's basically two colors green & red. There's ONE main alkaloid, plus 7-Ohm in trace amounts. Green is dried mostly indoors, Red mostly outdoors. Then.... What is a White and HOW do you turn already strong Greens.. into a faster White?

I have my own theories about how Whites are made. Based on what I've heard, people I know, photos I've seen, etc etc same as Gumby. I don't believe White is 1- A leaf color, 2- Made by mixing reds and greens together. So... before I reveal the secret. Anyone else? What makes a strong fast White?

My hardly educated guess would be that the White variety is 100% INDOOR processed, it is exposed to zero sun after harvest. That preserves more of its fast Mitragynine with NO conversion to the slow 7-Hydroxymitragynine. So, I am still working from an assumption that the 7-Hydroxymitragynine does indeed accumulate in the plant enough to trigger psychoactive effects. What makes any varietal faster is the higher Mitragynine contents, while AT THE SAME TIME non existence of the 7-Hydroxymitragynine, since it does not occur naturally at high enough rates and without oxidation of Mitragynine during processing, that level is negligible so the Mitragynine overtakes in its effects, as is evident in the White variety.

In reds, the oxidation leads to levels of 7-Hydroxymitragynine that are sufficient enough to provide effects of their own, those of a much slower opioid, while at the same time losing some of its Mitragynine contents to conversion. This increases depressive effects due to, again, higher 7-Hydroxymitragynine due to the oxidation by the sun, and lower Mitragynine contents due to conversion. We must remember that the 7-Hydroxymitragynine is far more potent than the Mitragynine. So, even an 8% ferment conversion of Mitragynine to 7-Hydroxymitragynine would yield significant depressive effects not normally found in an unprocessed plant.

The White varietal might be the only pure varietal that there is, as in what the plant offers at its "default state" prior to any processing. While the Green varietal might be that unprocessed White and highly processed Red blended together. This hypothesis does make sense, however it may still not be correct, but I believe that we are getting there.... This is just an idea, what are your thoughts on this?

[gumbyke1]

Correct me if I am wrong though, but isn't that already well known? Fermenting processes a part of the Mitragynine in the plant into its oxidized form of the 7-Hydroxymitragynine which in itself differs from the Mitragynine not only in potency, but also in effects. Mitragynine's effects tends to be far more stimulating than those of the 7-Hydroxymitragynine, hence there is a much slower affect from the red "strains" ....

I think that the focus on 7ohm isn't going to provide the answers to the question of how the properties of kratom change with different drying methods. I didn't put this is my last post for brevity's sake, but I think it will help to establish....

The CYPA34 enzyme metabolizes mitragynine to 7ohm in the liver. Now what is crazy is that there are several studies that show 70hm gets metabolized to mitragynine in the liver in animals, and that is believed to hold true in humans (studies with pure 7ohm have not been conducted in humans to my knowledge. Someone let me know if I am wrong). What does that mean? I think the focus on 7ohm is misplaced, I think there are changes in the other alkaloids that are responsible for the shifting properties. It also means that all of you folks out there drinking Grapefruit juice to enhance your dose might want to really document if placebo is the driving force behind your "increased effects". Its well know that inhibiting CYPA34 enzyme will potentiate opiates by keeping them active longer, but with kratom it seems it would have the opposite effect. You want the CPYA34 to metabolize mitragynine into 7ohm.

Everyone talks about how you can oxidize mitragynine into 7ohm through various methods, but if what I just wrote is true that doesn't matter (if we are only talking it and 70hm, it seems that it would make kratom weaker). However, when you are oxidizing kratom, the other 23 alkaloids that are changing as well, and I believe that is where the changes in its effects are coming from.

I am not a scientist.... so yeah there is that.

[gumbyke1]

I have my own theories about how Whites are made. Based on what I've heard, people I know, photos I've seen, etc etc same as Gumby. I don't believe White is 1- A leaf color, 2- Made by mixing reds and greens together. So... before I reveal the secret. Anyone else? What makes a strong fast White?

Not all whites are made by simply mixing a red and green batch... but that is precisely how a lot of the mass-produced kratom is made. They take a red and a green batch of leaves and mix them together during the milling process. Another common practice of your average supplied leaves is to do a partial indoor/partial outdoor dry. Another is to dry it indoors like a green for a longer period of time than normal. There are several other variations, but that is a general idea.

There is another method that works really well, but I won't be sharing that here

I would love to hear of another method if you know of one that works phenomenally!

[SpeciosaLife]

Now check out THIS YouTube video of JongKong Village. Obviously, they have made an investment here:

Jong Kong Village, Borneo = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWjGE0P3mos

PM incoming...

[Theanine]

There is another method that works really well, but I won't be sharing that here

I would love to hear of another method if you know of one that works phenomenally!

Large industrial oven?

[BallzDeep9]

String Process Kratom Farm 2015 = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbqNsqmLk-w

Yes "some" people DO string-dried .. Or at least they DID, four years ago?

Wild Harvest, 80-foot Kratom Tree = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXdV2s1ckT0

Yes, MOST good kratom is still wild harvested!

Traditional Farmer = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeQPl3VF87w

Wanna see how it's done? Farmers don't grow crops, they climb trees!

[gumbyke1]

String Process Kratom Farm 2015 = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbqNsqmLk-w

Yes "some" people DO string-dried .. Or at least they DID, four years ago?

Wild Harvest, 80-foot Kratom Tree = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXdV2s1ckT0

Yes, MOST good kratom is still wild harvested!

Traditional Farmer = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeQPl3VF87w

Wanna see how it's done? Farmers don't grow crops, they climb trees!

Balz- i absolutely love that video and I spent almost 2 years trying to find him. I finally got his contact info but of course he is no longer in the business. Ive reached out to him but no luck in getting him to speak with me. I'll PM you some more insights about him.

[Oletimer]

I thank you for taking the time and in depth personal research into this topic,,there's a lot we need to know as we consume this on a regular basis,Please continue,,knowledge is better than blind ignorance. It gave me pleasant goose bumps too, and also I see an even better reason to boil my tea!! .

[Oletimer]

Thank you! Taking the time and researching
this very interesting topic As consumers this is very important information well needed, Sure gave me pleasant goosebumps too,, it can be cringe worthy ,but knowledge is better than ignorance, or as you said the illusion of knowledge? Please continue, I know that from now on I will be boiling my doses,,toe nails?lol

[herbalhippie]

String Process Kratom Farm 2015 = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbqNsqmLk-w

Yes "some" people DO string-dried .. Or at least they DID, four years ago?

So what's special about string dried? Doesn't seem like it would be any different from bring dried on a screen, as long as the leaves were being moved around occasionally.

[herbalhippie]

Wild Harvest, 80-foot Kratom Tree = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXdV2s1ckT0

Yes, MOST good kratom is still wild harvested!

Yeah but they're destroying the tree, taking the branches off. There's got to be a better way to harvest wild.

[gumbyke1]

String Process Kratom Farm 2015 = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbqNsqmLk-w

Yes "some" people DO string-dried .. Or at least they DID, four years ago?

So what's special about string dried? Doesn't seem like it would be any different from bring dried on a screen, as long as the leaves were being moved around occasionally.

The reason I'm a huge fan is two-fold:
1. When done correctly they are more hygienic (when all other things are equal). Leaves that are dried on a rack (hopefully not a tarp) can trap pockets of moisture very easily if they are stacked too thick and/or they are not rotated appropriately. The person drying it via string needs to be conscious not to bunch the leaves too tightly or in too big of clusters. They also need to be checked on regularly and sometimes a fan is needed to circulate air if the humidity is too high. I like to also think that it keeps rodents and critters off the leaves as well (I have never actually tested this, but it seems logical to me).

2. I can't speak to the science of it at all, but when I send out blind samples to testers of various drying techniques. I have found that it usually string dried kratom scores higher- sometimes significantly. I don't know exactly what is at play to cause that effect, but when drying herbs it's well known that the best method is hanging them upside down to air dry (they say it allows the essential oils and alkaloids from the stems to drain into the leaf). I don't know if I actually believe that, it sounds kind of like something somebody made up and people just go with it. The results from blind tests we conduct are enough to make me a believer.

Maybe somebody who is experienced with drying herbs can chime in.

[Theanine]

String Process Kratom Farm 2015 = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbqNsqmLk-w

Yes "some" people DO string-dried .. Or at least they DID, four years ago?

So what's special about string dried? Doesn't seem like it would be any different from bring dried on a screen, as long as the leaves were being moved around occasionally.

The reason I'm a huge fan is two-fold:
1. When done correctly they are more hygienic (when all other things are equal). Leaves that are dried on a rack (hopefully not a tarp) can trap pockets of moisture very easily if they are stacked too thick and/or they are not rotated appropriately. The person drying it via string needs to be conscious not to bunch the leaves too tightly or in too big of clusters. They also need to be checked on regularly and sometimes a fan is needed to circulate air if the humidity is too high. I like to also think that it keeps rodents and critters off the leaves as well (I have never actually tested this, but it seems logical to me).

2. I can't speak to the science of it at all, but when I send out blind samples to testers of various drying techniques. I have found that it usually string dried kratom scores higher- sometimes significantly. I don't know exactly what is at play to cause that effect, but when drying herbs it's well known that the best method is hanging them upside down to air dry (they say it allows the essential oils and alkaloids from the stems to drain into the leaf). I don't know if I actually believe that, it sounds kind of like something somebody made up and people just go with it. The results from blind tests we conduct are enough to make me a believer.

Maybe somebody who is experienced with drying herbs can chime in.

It seems to me that it is all about the moisture, first enemy of alkaloids. Placing on a flat surface, as has been mentioned, creates inevitable pocket of moisture which destroy the psychoactive alkaloids. String hanging method simply avoids that particular pitfall but is obviously far more labor intensive.

Gumbyke, do you still offer samples for testing and reviewing? I think that is a good way to objectively find out which method of processing offers which effects on a consistent basis.

String Process Kratom Farm 2015 = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbqNsqmLk-w

Yes "some" people DO string-dried .. Or at least they DID, four years ago?

Wild Harvest, 80-foot Kratom Tree = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXdV2s1ckT0

Yes, MOST good kratom is still wild harvested!

Traditional Farmer = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeQPl3VF87w

Wanna see how it's done? Farmers don't grow crops, they climb trees!

Amazing videos, thank you for sharing. You are right, on the second video, the branch removal of the wild trees is detrimental to any further growth, so that is not really sustainable. At least though, they are not taking the entire trees down for the ease of leaf harvesting, that would have been disastrous!

[pray4peace4]

Cool video, Ballz. A couple things I noticed was 1) they washed off the leaves in "clean fresh water ".... and where exactly does the sewage from all these buildings go? 3rd world countries typically dump their sewage into the closest body of water. In one of gumby's photos you can see a concrete ditch right outside each house. Those are sewage channels that flow to streams. So that alone gives me the creeps. 2) in the last segment they show a guy on a dock hand scrubbing each leaf for an extended period. Really? They really scrub each & every leaf for 30 seconds? That's difficult to believe. I seriously doubt that's standard protocol.

Gumby's write up is the most realistic & informative kratom documentation I've ever seen. Thanks for all the time you put into this.

[Theanine]

Cool video, Ballz. A couple things I noticed was 1) they washed off the leaves in "clean fresh water ".... and where exactly does the sewage from all these buildings go? 3rd world countries typically dump their sewage into the closest body of water. In one of gumby's photos you can see a concrete ditch right outside each house. Those are sewage channels that flow to streams. So that alone gives me the creeps. 2) in the last segment they show a guy on a dock hand scrubbing each leaf for an extended period. Really? They really scrub each & every leaf for 30 seconds? That's difficult to believe. I seriously doubt that's standard protocol.

Gumby's write up is the most realistic & informative kratom documentation I've ever seen. Thanks for all the time you put into this.

Indonesia's environment is in serious jeopardy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environme ... _Indonesia

[herbalhippie]

Indonesia's environment is in serious jeopardy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environme ... _Indonesia

Are those kratom leaves on their stamp?!?

[FireK]

Fascinating! Thanks all Especially Gumby for sharing!

[Theanine]

Indonesia's environment is in serious jeopardy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environme ... _Indonesia

Are those kratom leaves on their stamp?!?

It certainly appears so!

*Good catch, Herbalhippie. I haven't initially noticed the likeness to the actual Kratom foliage.

[herbalhippie]

That's freaking awesome!!

[gumbyke1]

Indonesia's environment is in serious jeopardy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environme ... _Indonesia

Are those kratom leaves on their stamp?!?

It certainly appears so!

*Good catch, Herbalhippie. I haven't initially noticed the likeness to the actual Kratom foliage.

Oh man I want that stamp so bad! I would love to use those to mail my packages, lol!

[MetalMamaRocks]

Indonesia's environment is in serious jeopardy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environme ... _Indonesia

Are those kratom leaves on their stamp?!?

It certainly appears so!

*Good catch, Herbalhippie. I haven't initially noticed the likeness to the actual Kratom foliage.

HAHA that's pretty cool!

[gumbyke1]

I have my own theories about how Whites are made. Based on what I've heard, people I know, photos I've seen, etc etc same as Gumby. I don't believe White is 1- A leaf color, 2- Made by mixing reds and greens together. So... before I reveal the secret. Anyone else? What makes a strong fast White?

Okay I have been waiting days to hear this method! I know if anyone knows a secret recipe... its you. I cant wait any longer....

[HappyHulu]

Wonderful read. Thank you gumby... sure wish I could purchase from you.

[Theanine]

I have my own theories about how Whites are made. Based on what I've heard, people I know, photos I've seen, etc etc same as Gumby. I don't believe White is 1- A leaf color, 2- Made by mixing reds and greens together. So... before I reveal the secret. Anyone else? What makes a strong fast White?

Okay I have been waiting days to hear this method! I know if anyone knows a secret recipe... its you. I cant wait any longer....

Yes, Ballz, enough of the suspense already, its killing me! I had always assumed that the White variety tends to be indoor/minimally processed young or regular leaves. Obviously, I am incorrect, but what is it then? Do they all get blessed by some Indonesian messiah or something?

[gumbyke1]

Wonderful read. Thank you gumby... sure wish I could purchase from you.

I'm sorry Hulu...I hate that I have to disappoint folks, its a total bummer if I could hit the reset button I would probably have just started with handful o folks this forum and a maybe a few others.

[Somethingsacred]

Thank you
Much gratitude
Big thanks
Looking forward to following your journey

[Rnb1987]

OK ballz I’ve got a theory...green tea

[InfinityStone]

This is my first post here. Thank you so much for all of this. I can read that your heart is in this and it is evident in the time it has taken you to expand your knowledge in the field. I can’t wait to continue to learn more from you and this forums community. So glad I found it!

[herbalhippie]

This is my first post here. Thank you so much for all of this. I can read that your heart is in this and it is evident in the time it has taken you to expand your knowledge in the field. I can’t wait to continue to learn more from you and this forums community. So glad I found it!

Welcome, I'm glad you found us!

[gumbyke1]

Thank you
Much gratitude
Big thanks
Looking forward to following your journey

Hey thanks for coming over here and checking it out! I tell you, I think you will like it here more This community rocks!