Behind The Scenes Of The Kratom Industry

[gumbyke1]

May 2021 UPDATE - Are any of those strains fermented?




***Editors Note - I would encourage everyone to take the time to read this carefully, as there is a lot to digest. If you skim through it, you might miss some of the most important clarifying parts. Also, be sure to read through all of the comments, a lot of members have contributed some really great stuff in the comments following my posts. DONT SKIP THE VIDEOS - some of those will blow your mind: ***

Hello Gang! I know I have promised in other threads that one day I will post a bunch of "behind the scenes" information on the industry surrounding our beloved plant and that day has finally come! I apologize for taking so long, with two little ones and a job it can be challenging to even check your PM's

I think it's a good idea to start by aligning us on some of the vocab I will be using. I may add more to this at a later date, but this is what I think is needed for now:

Suppliers = The people in Indonesia that sell/export wholesale powdered kratom to US vendors.
Vendors = US companies that sell kratom to consumers.
Farmer = People who grow kratom trees and harvest the leaves as a crop.
Harvesters = People who pick kratom leaves from trees in the wild.
Mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine (7ohm) = While kratom has many alkaloids that contribute to its effects, these two are responsible for the majority of the sought after effects.
Hustler = A hustler is an aggressively enterprising person. A go-getter that will do whatever it takes... sometimes misrepresenting the facts or outward lying/cheating to get things done.

Like many of you I absolutely love kratom and it completely fills my cup when I get a chance to help people who are new to the scene. As a side effect of that obsessive passion, I get really frustrated by the insane amount of misinformation that you will find on websites and forums. It really bothers me to see new people who are trying to learn about the plant being jerked around. Furthermore, its extremely uncomfortable to know that most people, including many vendors, do not have a full understanding of how the kratom they ingest is actually made/processed (as you will learn below, this is a big problem).

I, along with others here, frequently find ourselves sharing what we know... when you find yourself doing it every day it can be very time-consuming. For a long time, I have wanted to put something down here that I can point to every time I come across bad information. Part of my delay in doing so is that I feel there is some risk in doing it. The reality is that some of what I am going to say may be uncomfortable or unwelcome for many reasons. The kratom communities that I am active in mean a lot to me, I hope my decision to finally make this posting doesn't jeopardize my ability to enjoy them as I always have. For brevity's sake (yeah right), I won’t go into everything in this post, but if it’s well received by the community then I may do different topic posts in the future.

This may get a bit long, especially after adding photos and videos, but stick with me… I promise you will learn something interesting (or at least see some cool pictures). Before we begin my lawyers want me to get a few disclaimers out in the open...

You may not believe much of what I am going to share - and for good reason. Much of the information that can be found by the Google gods will contradict what I've found to be true. I can't count how many times I’ve been in a conversation where I am just completely written off because my suggestions are so against the grain that they assume that I am absolutely clueless about all things kratom. Following those conversations, I usually receive links to websites to "prove" to me I'm wrong (usually they are links vendor websites ). The cards are so stacked against my claims, I'm pretty much used to being blown off by now. Truthfully, none of that bothers me... I totally get it. I've been that person many times before .

Although I feel I am very qualified to speak on this subject, most of you have no idea about who I am in real life. With that said, I'm totally cool if you don’t agree or don’t want anything to do with what I have to say. My hope is that this post is valuable to some members of this community, but I have nothing to gain or prove in sharing my 2 cents. Accept the info however you will, I just ask you don’t flame me for what I share... my intentions are good.

How This All Started:

I got started down this rabbit hole of kratom exploration because I was so sick and tired of playing kratom roulette… you know when you order 6 strains from your favorite vendor and your lucky if 2 of them are decent. I just couldn’t understand why everything was so hit-and-miss. Seriously, why has nobody figured this out? Isn't this the type of thing that capitalism is supposed to correct? Well, I made the decision that I was going to try and figure it out (not as a vendor, but more as a passion project). After an enormous amount of resources in energy, time, and money I can say that I have figured out a GREAT deal, but I can't say that I have fully satisfied my calling. I'm hoping that my trip to Borneo at the end of this year will fill in the gaps, but I've also felt that many times before . After all of this, the only thing I can absolutely say I am certain of is that things are much more complicated than they appear to be on the surface.

Before I start revealing the ugly, I would first like to say that you should NOT blame your vendors and fellow kratomites for the lies weve been sold. Here is why:

1. Many US vendors do not actually understand much of the industry works. I will explain why in a little more detail later, but sadly the average Joe vendor does not know much of what I’ll share below. I've talked with countless vendors to test this hypothesis, I can assure you the propaganda runs deep in this industry.

2. I will cover this in detail later but the myth around vein colors and strains is just that… a myth. However, there are very good reasons for why vendors follow the program (besides not having a clue). The idea of stains and veins is so ingrained in kratom culture that anyone trying to buck that would find themselves alone in a corner and alienating their customers. Unless they have a very strong platform to educate (and trust that their customers would educate themselves), it makes absolutely no business sense to change it up. Sure, there are a few hard-core kratomites that might appreciate that approach, but it doesn’t work for scaling to the masses.

3. Money. All of this vein/strain nonsense started in Indonesia as a marketing ploy for suppliers to sell more kratom. Once kratom's popularity began picking up steam they quickly learned that offering more exciting options = more sales. The same holds true over here. However, I think that this isn't necessarily a bad thing because a lot of different styles of processing kratom have been born as a result. More on this later...

4. There is a very practical use for referencing veins and strains. These distinctions, although misleading at their root, actually do help the consumers in ways make somewhat intelligent selections (more on that later). It also allows for more consistent batch making, which I am sure I will talk more about down the road. I label my batches as different strains, primarily for this reason.

***I should clarify now that I am a small private vendor, although I never specifically set out to be one. This little passion project involved me doing a lot of trial and error experimenting with different suppliers and processing methods. This led to me importing a lot of kratom, which naturally resulted in me needing a place for it to go! In this post or in future posts I may be critical of how things in the industry are done in general, but it's not at all a critique of any one supplier, vendor, farmer, or harvester. Before another vendor accuses me of sharing this information for my own personal benefit let me clarify that I am not accepting new customers... several on this forum who already know about my little project can attest to that.***

I want to acknowledge that I will be using a lot of wide casting language in this post (most, all, majority, everyone, etc…) because in most cases it applies correctly. However, as with everything, there are always exceptions. When I say most people or 99% of people that doesn’t mean every single person. Please note that there are exceptions, and some of those might be vendors or suppliers who are popular on this forum. Generally, the people who frequent kratom forums are probably in the top 1% of the knowledgeable base of kratom users in the US. Therefore, these statements may not apply to people who are plugged into these communities. I know for a fact that there are reputable vendors and suppliers who visit this forum. If you are a vendor or supplier and I say something that offends you, consider that you may be the exception that I'm referring to. Finally, I will not weigh in with my personal thoughts on vendors/suppliers so please don't PM me to ask. It’s not right for me to characterize the hard work of other persons based on nothing more than a guess. I am only going to speak on what I do know to be true among the general majority.

[gumbyke1]

So let us begin with one of the biggest myths - Vein Colors!

If you frequent the Discords servers you may have already heard me rant (Simple TFH on discord)about this but I find that most people still dont know about this very foundational lie. Common kratom knowledge would tells you that kratom has red, green, white, yellow, gold, orange, and purple veins. Seriously there are probably more out there but none of it matters. Here is the truth - TRIGGER WARNING - vein color has absolutely nothing to do with the therapeutic effects or even the final color of kratom powder.

Put everything you know aside and think about this logically for a second. Would a tiny little yellow leaf vein magically turn all of the leaf material a beautiful golden color once it was milled into a powder? Obviously not - but its kind of crazy to acknowledge that so few people have given it much thought.

The truth is, 97% - 99% of the kratom that is imported into the United States are red-veined leaves. This is ture because there are only a very small number of white and green veins that even exists on most trees, somewhere around 1-3%. Admittedly the percentage I quote is not something I have scientifically tallied, but it is the consensus estimate that I have received from people who actually harvest it. White/green veins are usually just younger leaves or canopy leaves. In Indonesia they call those leaves “pucuk” and the only major difference is that they can sometimes have a slightly waxier film on them. There are trees that seem to produce more green/white leaves than normal, but these are not common. The white/green veins are actually not the preferred leaves to chew by the few Indonesian/Malaysian laborers that chew it for energy (contrary to what you would think). As studied and confirmed by the great Dr. Chris Mccurdy, there is virtually no difference in the alkaloid composition or ratios between red, green, and white leaves from the same tree. Its important to note that there is a big difference between young leaves and leaves from a young tree. That is an important distinction because there is one piece of scientific literature that doesn’t articulate this well, and that is often incorrectly cited to support the argument that vein colors have an effect on the leaves alkaloid profile. Assuming all other variables are equal, the young leaves (green/white) of a mature tree will absolutely have a higher concentration of the desired alkaloids (mainly mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine) than any leaves of a young tree. Regarding the other vein colors, they just don’t exist in any significant numbers. Sure you can find yellow veins, but they are really just a hue in between green and white. I’ve also seen some very deep red veins that you could say were purple, but I think you get the idea.

[gumbyke1]

Color

The “color” of kratom is actually a product of how the kratom is processed and dried after it's been harvested. Once dried, the original vein colors of the leaves are not known nor do they matter. Now I know what you are thinking - you swear that your body can’t handle white or green kratom because it makes you jittery, etc. There may be some truth to that because the alkaloid profiles can be altered by the different methods of drying. I don’t want to get too technical because there are a lot of variations, but below are some of the more common methods of how you produce each color of kratom:

Red – Dried outdoors (usually) in the sun (dark red and brown powders that are NOT fermented). Darker shades of red may be put in a clear plastic bag for 1-2 days and then finished in the sun - this gives them a partial fermentation...but this "fermentation" is not very common...it's almost always just sun exposed kratom.
Green –in the shade or indoors
White – surprise this is often achieved in the warehouse by mixing the crushed leaf of red and green kratom. Alternatively, some are made by partially drying indoors and then drying in the sun. I should clarify that not all "white vein" is produced by mixing red and green, this is more in reference to how the majority of mass-producers create a "white" strain. The most common method for producing a "true white" is drying indoors for a longer period of time, but there are still several variations that different producers use. I would encourage everyone reading this post to read all of the comments following, as there are a lot of people contributing some additional great insights, and I presume that will continue!
Yellow/Gold (depending on what they feel like calling it) – Dried outdoors and/or partially indoors. Sometimes with a partial fermentation in a clear bag in the sun. Other methods involve keeping the leave-in intense sunlight to be bleached after it has already been dried. (try leaving some kratom powder on the dashboard of your car)
Fermented / Bentuangie – Fully fermented and dried outdoors. *Note - Many of the brown powders that are sold as "Bent" are not actually fermented - they are just oxidized from drying in the sun. True-Bentuangie is the most difficult kratom batch to pull off, not many do it well (the plastic bag in the sun is not how good bent is made).

To illustrate the point, I'll share some examples of different drying methods that I put together for a discord chat the other night. The below 6 “strains” of kratom come from just two wild trees that were side by side along the bank of the Kapuas river.









The top 3 examples are all INDOOR dried.

1. (Left) was dried on a rack indoors (more pictures on this below).
2 (Center) was string dried indoors with minimal UV light exposure and in climate controlled room (this is a very rare method, but produces exceptional quality)
3. (Right) was string dried indoors with minimal UV light but not climate controlled. It also has a more coarse grind. (this is also a rare method).

The Bottom 3 are OUTDOOR dried (or partially dried outdoors)

4. The first (left) was dried in the sun on a rack
5. The second is a "white" which was a mixture of strains 1 and 4
6. The last one (right) was dried outdoors on a rack, and then sun-bleached for an additional 7 days. They were also given a partial ferment during the initial drying in a clear bag.

Before you get upset about the scam you’ve bought into, rest assured there is a good reason for the variations. Although these are all basically the same leaves, there are very noticeable differences in the therapeutic effects because of the way they were processed. . For good measure, I'll share that we have tried just about every processing experiment you could think of and when we tested the effects of separating leaves by vein color we saw zero noticeable effects (imagine that... just like the science says).

Most people including many vendors do not understand or acknowledge this very basic concept. I've come across plenty of folks who honorably defend their favorite vendor and let me know that their vendor really does separate out the leaves.... after all you can see it says so right on their website. I hate to be blunt about it but those vendors are either being dishonest or are very gullible.

Gullibility brings me to the next topic…

[gumbyke1]

As I stated before many US vendors have no idea where the leaves in their product come from, even though they may genuinely think that they really do. This is probably the number one thing that really bothers me about the whole industry, you will find out why very shortly.

The reason that the true source of kratom leaves is such a mystery is because of the way the leaf supply chain is structured in Indonesia. Multiplying the problem is the fact that suppliers in Indonesia will tell you just about ANYTHING that they think you want to hear in order to get your business, which completely fools the majority of US vendors. These suppliers have access to the same forums and literature as we do, so they know what to say to get our attention and approval. I would estimate that somewhere around 90-95% of the kratom that is imported into the US is supplied by leaf brokers/hustlers in the big cities, many of them in the city of Pontianak. They are not farmers or harvesters, they are just guys in the city who have the machinery to mill kratom leaves into powder, the understanding on how to navigate the exportation challenges, and the connections to foreign buyers. Again, this is not a slam on every supplier out of Pontianak or other big cities. I work with several small suppliers almost daily who I are good friends and almost considered family. However, there are literally hundreds maybe even thousands of Indonesian kratom suppliers that this does accurately represent.

Here is the reality about where those hustlers in the city get their leaves. Virtually all of these leaf brokers will tell you that they harvest and dry their own leaves. When you make it obvious to them that you know that is not at all true, they will explain it away by saying, well we actually only work with a few select farmers and wild harvesters. The reality is that most of the time, this is not true as well. The vast majority of them actually buy leaves in bulk (sometimes by the ton) from local collection points or from other wholesale leaf brokers. These collection points are where the actual farmers/harvesters will sell their already dried/crushed leaves for what is the equivalent of a couple of dollars per kilogram (they can sell their leaves “wet” but they only get around 12 cents a kilo for wet leaves). All of the leaves then get pooled together into lots and are sold off in bulk to the mill owners in the city (the suppliers).

***Side note, apply that logic to what you think you know about "strains"... more to come later***

There are also a lot of what I call “side hustlers” who are actually just salesmen with a computer who buy their kratom already milled from one of the big suppliers and act as if they have their own operation. Everything about this supply chain is a problem for several reasons but the two most obvious being:


Safety/Sanitation: -

The suppliers in Pontianak (or other cities) often have absolutely no idea what care was taken during the harvest, washing, drying, and mechanical separation of the leaves to ensure the leaves are kept sanitary (assuming they were washed at all, which is a large assumption). Something that is important to understand is that to many Indonesian farmers and harvesters, kratom leaves are just a commodity. They don’t necessarily view the leaves as a food or something to consume, the idea of ingesting dried kratom leaves is completely absent from their culture. They probably view it no different than how you and I might view the leaves we rake out of our yard.

The picture below is part of an article on an Indonesian website that was translated to English for you. The article is an educational piece that informed Indonesians about how lucrative and easy it is to collect and process kratom leaves. It’s almost as if it is trying to encourage more people to get into the industry. I’m curious if you can you see spot the 100 things that are concerning about the photo they used and how they describe the process.




Don’t worry, I am sure that they sanitized their feet before grinding and look, they laid down a tarp to keep the leaves out of the brake dust and well everything else that you might find alongside the road. It speaks volumes that on a widely distributed website it wasn’t even a consideration that they should use a more hygienic example to introduce the process to potential future harvesters. I think this suggests that those methods may be widely seen as acceptable or at least normalized.

But hey... at least Roadside Red would make a very nice strain name.

****EDIT*** I have added some more examples because I want it to be clear... these are not just one-off practices. Here are a few more examples... I have pictures for days if anyone wants to see more!

Remember the step of washing the leaves happens before you dry them (if it happens).

"RED VEIN"

Raking the leaves... and everything else. No rack, no tarp - no problem! Ive always wondered why some kratom tastes a bit more earthy...



Wild Tarp



Now that is what I call a front yard!



No, the green tarp does not make it a green strain



Harvesting kratom is just like doing your laundry!















"GREEN VEIN"

Driveway Maeng Da



Look, schools can be used for making Super Green Too! I hope they rotate those leaves being stacked so high... then again that means they have to walk through them. Hmmm...










Here is a nice video - again another great use of a school! No this isnt drone footage, that is somebody walking through the pile of leaves that somebody is going to consume.

https://imgur.com/yW55pAT


FEAR NOT!



Here is a little bit of what responsible harvesting and drying should actually look like. Please note that I literally just now quickly threw this together with some pictures and videos I already had on hand. I may put something thoroughly and polished together in the future if folks are interested in seeing more. Also, please forgive my posting my name all over the photos/video. If I didn't do that these pictures would be used by Indonesian suppliers to trick/hustle other US vendors that this was their process..... dead serious.


WATCH THIS VIDEO

https://youtu.be/VaMbIJHnxRg


Here are other examples of responsible drying:

[gumbyke1]

If you would like to see a video demonstration of the kratom processing in this particular village (I highly encourage it), go ahead and watch the footage in the link below.

STOP HERE AND WATCH THIS VIDEO

https://youtu.be/M4pVobNa9qc



Ah, that was refreshing, wasn't it? Lets play a quick game of "Did you see"...

1. Did you spot the bicycles that looked like they were on a path to ride right through the pile of drying leaves (BECAUSE THEY ARE DRYING RIGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MAIN ROAD!!!)

2. Could you see the dogs and chickens roaming about in the background? Dont worry, I'm sure they have trained them not to go anywhere near the leaves on the ground.

3. What did you think about the gentlemen's stylish footwear? I'm sure those were his kratom walking shoes. Anyone up for some Toe-Nail Thai?

4. BONUS - How many of you spotted the huge mounds leaves that were being dried on the floor in what appears to be someone’s house? Sure its warm, moist, and dark, but mold can’t grow indoors can it?

In case you were wondering that this was a one-off, I have plenty of videos/photos that show otherwise (I might add some more if it becomes relevant in a later post).

The list of concerns here is endless. Virtually anyone can walk into the woods, gather some leaves, grind them with their toes, and then sell them for a few bucks at the market. These are the farmers and harvesters that are anonymously providing the Indonesian suppliers/hustlers with their leaves.

I don’t want to sound like an alarmist, but these are not even the worst things I’ve seen. It certainly doesn’t mean that its all processed in a similar fashion, but the point is neither you nor your vendor can be certain where their leaves come from without some rigorous investigating and surprise video chat inspections. While I would guess that at least 90-95% of the kratom imported is through these leaf brokers, there are some US vendors that have oversight over the whole process; farm to table. My guess is that almost all vendors will claim they do, so it can be tricky to truly know. I already shared that I give my personal opinions on what vendors might have responsible sourcing, but I will share that in my estimation a few that are popular on the kratom forums do.

How about other steps of the process? Okay, you asked for it...

[gumbyke1]

The second major issue that is caused by anonymous leaf sourcing is that suppliers don’t clue about the quality of the leaves is that they are milling.

An important thing to note before we go further is that kratom trees do not even begin producing significant levels of Mitragynine and 7-Hydroxymitragynine (7ohm) until they are roughly three years old. A young kratom tree can produce harvest size leaves within 6-7 months and kratom trees can be partially harvested every month ( a whole tree’s worth of leaves are usually harvested every 6 months). That creates a large window of time for many harvests to occur where the leaves that were harvested are basically inert. Remember all of these leaves are sold and pooled together, so the suppliers buying leaves in bulk don’t know if they are from a 15 year old tree in the wild or a 2 year old tree. They also don’t even know if all of the leaves are kratom leaves! The quality is a complete mystery. For this reason, some suppliers follow a practice of mixing bags of crushed leaves prior to milling to reduce the chances of a completely inert batch. Its not a good for a suppliers reputation to sell batches that are complete inert, it's better to have two low-quality batches instead. This is actually one of the key reasons why “kratom roulette” is a thing.

*** Time for another side note - Have you ever heard that kratom was better “back in the day”? This is actually somewhat true because of some of the reasons mentioned above. Years ago, a great deal of the kratom in the industry came from the leaves of mature trees in the wild. There were a few kratom plantations as far back as the mid-2000s, but the demand just wasn’t high enough to command a price that lured farmers away from growing the much more profitable rubber trees. However, in the past 3-5 years, the demand for kratom has exploded making the concept of farming kratom more lucrative. Also working in synergy, the price of rubber has been in regular decline since 2012. Outside a short spike in 2018, their prices have gotten so low that rubber farmers are struggling to make ends meet. This equation has led to the obvious conclusion of kratom plantations popping up everywhere over the past couple of years. While its good for US consumers that production is being increased to meet demand, it's hurting us in the short term because the market is now being flooded with leaves from very young trees. Remember, young trees will produce decently sized leaves, but they won’t have the alkaloid content we want until the trees are at least 3 years old.***

You will find farms with young trees all over Borneo. As you can see in the picture below, its very easy to plant massive amounts of these trees. Notice how these young plants still have leaves that are big enough to harvest, but despite their size they won't have much to them.








Here are a couple of pictures that show what the crushed leaves look like when they are bought from these collection points. As you can see, the leaves give no clue as to their origins once in this form.












:

[gumbyke1]

WHY Is Consistancy Hard To Get?



Putting aside sanitation, one might think that a good supplier might be able to discern what is good kratom before buying it by sampling it. There are two issues with this logic.

1. First being Kratom use is actually very rare in Indonesia. It's hard to believe, but most of the city hustlers that are exporting kratom do not actually use kratom powder themselves. Despite what you may have heard, it's just not common in their culture outside laborers - and they usually just chew the leaf. As a result, many suppliers don’t even actually know what quality kratom powder is outside of reading what we talk about on these forums. It’s like asking somebody who doesn’t drink alcohol to pick out what the good wine is from an array of 50 samples. I have had a supplier send me a video of him consuming kratom, but by his facial expressions and the way he consumed it, you could tell it was his first time ever (he literally took a spoonful and was chewing like it was cereal or something. He then asked for a drink when he realized he couldn't swallow it otherwise ) I'm telling you.... they have no idea.

2. The second issue that prevents any kind of quality control is the scale. A lot of these suppliers are literally producing thousands of kilos a week. They take in truckload after truckload of crushed leaf. There is just absolutely no way that you could test each batch of leaves before buying them at the market. You can forget quality control after they have already bought the kratom, there just isn’t any incentive for them to try an implement that. There is also no way a supplier is going to take a loss on bad batches once they have paid for the leaf.

Here are a few photos that show you how some of this can scale. The below is not by any means the most I have seen, its just photos I have on hand now. I have seen literally a convoy of trucks full of kratom drive out of a warehouse before.

***Edit - Video removed - wrong video clip




Minimum order 1000kg. Kind of makes you wonder what a large order is...



Those are not 1kg bags... its hard to tell for sure but I bet those are 5kg bags.



One order ready to ship!



This is what I would call a boat load of kratom











***As another side note – if you were are like me the obvious answer as to how you can consistently import high-quality kratom would be to provide financial incentives to suppliers for them to send you “the good stuff”. What doesn’t work if you throw money at it, right? Well, after a lot of different incentive models with many different suppliers and tens of thousands of dollars later, I’ve learned that throwing money at the problem just doesn’t work. It's partially due to the reasons above and partially because there are more forces at play than your dinky $10-$25 more a kilo you are willing to pay. There are ways to get good kratom some-what consistently, but incentive structures have not proven to be an effective method, even when making them very attractive***

[gumbyke1]

The reason I call many of these leaf brokers hustlers is that many will pretend to be anything and everything in order to gain US vendors trust and business. What if your not a vendor? Well, that just means you are the lowest on their priorities list... plan on customer no-service if there is any kind of issue or dissatisfaction.

Here are a few of the most common hustles that US vendors get deceived by:

1. Some will send you photos of these really incredible looking drying and milling facilities claiming that it's their processing plant. The only problem is so many of these suppliers share the claim of ownership over the same 8-10 photos. When you call them on it they just kind of laugh it off like its funny and then get right back to telling you why their kratom is best. They just glaze over it and keep going like you are an old and senile person. It’s evident that they really do think we are idiots, and I realize that it’s probably because so many of us buy it 100%.

Here are a couple of widely shared photos of facilities. Ive seen these pictures soooo many times. One of these is the real owner (he sent me a video to prove it).

FAKE OWNER


REAL OWNER



Here is a video of that room if you are interested:

https://imgur.com/WtvU4c0





2. They will also send photos of nice indoor drying racks or a picture of kratom that is beautifully hung on a string and claim that is how they dry all of their leaves (remember in reality they don’t dry any leaves at all). The only problem, of course, is the picture of string drying happens to also be the only picture you will find easily on google. (see the famous fake photo here)






***A word to the wise regarding string-drying kratom - string drying kratom can produce a premium product, but it takes a great deal of networking, incentives, and luck to form the partnerships in which they will do it. It takes an incredibly large additional investment of labor to execute, and for most of the mid-large size operations, it’s just not worth the labor and space that it requires. If somebody claims that they string dry, ask them for photos with the date actually displayed in the photo. In my quest to find the best possible methods for processing kratom, just about every supplier I spoke with agreed to do string drying for me and were happy to show me a photo example. Mysteriously just about every supplier would disappear when I asked for photos with something displayed in the photo to prove it (my name and date). It took me forever with actual friends in the area influencing farmers and small village harvesters to find folks who would agree to string dry and provide photos of each batch.*** (see real examples of how to confirm string-drying below). String dried batches are usually very small due to the labor and space required.










3. They will photoshop and use color lenses to make their kratom appear that they used a different drying method than they actually did. After it arrives you compare it to the photo they sent you and realized you've been had. So many times I've heard, "Oh, it must just be the lighting" when trying new suppliers. Here is an example of me calling a supplier out on manipulating the color and him sending me a new picture saying, "it was the lighting".








4. LABS - They all have them. Usually, they will share labs unsolicited to that show mitragynine content to be almost 2% to support their claims at how "rare their kratom is because it's from mature wild trees". Some suppliers show of some pretty good photoshop skills in this area, while some of the others just take the easy route and send you copies of a lab that you have already seen 10 times. At the end of the day, none of it usually matters if they are getting their leaves to form all kinds of random places. Here is a couple of examples I recently received. You can see in the last one I call them out for sending me fake labs. I sent him a picture of that same lab with another suppliers watermark. Notice how easily he plays it off and keeps going... jeez I wonder how many times people just go along.

Here is a copy of a very popular lab. Notice how he conveniently cropped off the information that I could use to validate it (lab report, etc.)








Here is another very lazy fake I just received (adding this October 2019) ....

See if you can spot the discrepancies with the dates and mitragynine content.

[gumbyke1]

I wlll add to this soon...

[gumbyke1]

The Stark Contrasts From Behind The Scenes

After showing in previous posts the variation of ways kratom can be dried, I've gotten a lot of requests from people wanting to see more behinds the scenes pictures/videos of the other parts of processing. I think the best approach to this is to show you the two separate groups that are usually involved with its production (1. Farmers/Harvesters 2. Milling factory and Suppliers/hustlers). There are also some suppliers that oversee the whole process farm to table, as you will see below, but they are far less common. I'd love to share with you examples from a wide variety of different farmers/suppliers, but there is not that much footage out there on the washing and grinding processes. Most of what I have to share is what I get from my partners during inspections and harvest recaps. I did find a couple of examples on the web though, I think its enough to give a good representation of the degree of difference between different suppliers.

IF YOU JUST ATE LUNCH - YOU MIGHT WANT TO COME BACK LATER TO WATCH THIS (BUT PLEASE DO AT SOME POINT WATCH)


Harvesters and Farmers - How Some Anonymous Source Leaves are Processed

These are the first group of folks that play a hand in the production of kratom. Kratom leaves are picked, dried, and crushed by the farmers and harvesters. The crushed leaf is then bagged up in these giant sacks and sold to the market (one of the collection sites) or individual suppliers/mill operators. They usually received $4-$7 per kilogram of crushed leaves. You've seen a smaller village operation in a previous video, this video is an example of a large scale producer. Again, keep in mind this video was produced by the owner of this operation to showcase their business... I wonder what they do when the cameras are not on? (I also wonder about how many cigarette butts get grounded up with the leaves... ugh)


WATCH THIS VIDEO

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Weglvyxe0






I didn't have any footage of how they harvested, but I don't think it's needed, lol. I also think it's safe to assume that washing is not taking place since they are literally drying the leaves in the dirt. Wow. Again, I don't want to paint the picture that this is how its all done, but there IS a lot of that going on!



Harvesting Done The Right Way - These are some examples of what that process should look like. Hot off the presses, I just received these new videos recapping the weekend harvest. I wasnt sure what everyone would want to see, so I just got highlights of the main processes. Please let me know if there is anything else that you would like some footage of!


Forest and Farm Fly Over - This farm has a combination of wild trees and plantation trees. The youngest trees on this property are 7 years old, while the wild trees are estimated to be over 30 years old.


VIDEO
https://youtu.be/4SFkrtfY_mY





Harvesting Wild Trees - Don't you wish you had one of these in your backyard? I should mention that I know it looks like they are stripping the tree bare, but I assure you they are harvesting responsibly and leaving the proper amount of leaves necessary for the tree to replenish. Trees this mature are a valuable resource that's highly treasured... there is no way they would be doing anything that jeopardizes the health of these trees.


VIDEO
https://youtu.be/aHjF8WlQIGE







Washing Leaves - After the leaves are harvested they get a vinegar and water solution bath/soak, followed by a scrub, then finished with a clean water rinse. Leaves that are to be string-dried are placed into an empty basket so that they can be "bunched". Leaves that are to be dried on a rack indoors go back into a pool of clean water until they are ready to be racked. ***PLEASE NOTE - There have been some folks who wonder if this is the real process, I assure you it is. Please see my comments on this in one of my posts on page 3 of this thread.*** I'm sure they did a little extra scrubbing in this example since the supervisor was hovering over their head with a drone recording, but you get a general idea of what it looks like. Washing and Drying are the two processes that I find suppliers taking shortcuts. Unfortunately, there have been several times that I have caught a supplier I work with misrepresenting the execution of a process we aligned on (thanks Whatsapp video chats). Trust but verify....


VIDEO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F4EUNEwDfpo






Indoor Rack Drying - I've shown plenty of examples of string drying kratom, here is a quick video on what proper rack drying looks like.


VIDEO
https://youtu.be/sG8Lo7Ulqco







Wholesale Suppliers - The second link in the kratom chain


Remember again most of the kratom produced is brought into these factories in mass quantities as crushed powder. This is what I refer to as "anonymous leaf sourcing" and its a big part of why kratom is so inconsistent. The bags full of powder are then sorted by color and assign a strain name. They are then packaged for export to US vendors. Below is the video tour of a milling plant of big supplier.

VIDEO
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gX4x_e_C9uQ







Milling done the right way - As I mentioned before, most suppliers will claim to either be the farmers or say that they directly oversee the farmers that provide their leaf... this is usually not true. However, there are some that do oversee the whole process... I like to call this farm-to-table kratom. This is much less common because many of those who are on the agricultural side do not have the machinery to mill or the connections to export and reach US customers. Here is a quick video I just got of what the milling process looks like from a responsible supplier.

VIDEO
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSoXKn_rqWg

[gumbyke1]

The Insane Strain Game

“The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world that different kratom strains exist”.

Okay, so I know this topic has been covered by many but I still find that the vast majority of kratomites are not aware of the strain name scam. Go ahead and gasp if you’ve never heard this before, but the different strain names you order are not a real thing. There is only one species of kratom – Mitragynine Specious. Now there are different leaf types and plants (more on that later), but the truth is that your favorite strain of kratom (Bali, Maeng Da, Borneo, etc.) usually has no meaningful connection to the name it is given and is most likely not from the same source each time you order it (usually, but not 100% of the time). So why the hoax? I think you know the answer to that…. MONEY!



I remember a time when kratom was so much simpler. Kratom really only came in like 5 basic “varieties” (Bali, Indo, Maeng Da, Thai, and Malay). On top of that, usually, each type was associated with only one specific “vein color” (Red Bali, Green Thai, etc). You just didn’t hear such a thing as a “Green Bali”, or “Red Thai”. Everyone knew the different prescribed uses for each strain, Bali for X, Thai for Y, and then there was the big dog, Maeng Da. Maeng Da was usually quite a bit more expensive ($30-$35 an ounce) because it was touted as the ultimate strain… it had everything there was to be desired packed into one potent strain. Embarrassingly, some of that Maeng Da folk-lore that still exists in the community to this day… its 2019 and I am still finding vendors who charge more for it today. It was all a scam, but there was so little truthful information available to believe otherwise. Reddit wasn’t very popular and the kratom forums were usually run and organized by vendors. The forums were a real echo chamber of misinformation and vendor shillery. The only people who knew it was a scam were the Indo suppliers and maybe a couple of vendors - and they sure as heck were not going to ruin the party.

I don’t recall what Indonesian supplier started it, but somebody had the idea to break the existing norms and they created a new strain… Green Bali. I remember the message boards lighting up with excitement because of the discovery of a new strain. The community was filled with awe and people were checking the forums obsessively watching and waiting for the first reviews to roll in. Little did we know at the time, but that “discovery” of Green Bali was about to change everything. Pretty soon amazing discoveries seemed to be happening every month, Red Thai, Green Indo… it's like the Jacques Cousteau of kratom had declared his presence. Of course, we know now that it didn’t end with unorthodox vein colors, pretty soon we were learning about all kinds of exotic strains like Sundanese, Sumatran, Borneo, etc. The thing was that as the Indonesian suppliers were “discovering” new strains, they were actually just discovering ways to sell more products. More options, more money. Pretty soon you had vendors jumping in on the action and the rest is history.

So does this mean that strain names are totally worthless? Well, the answer to that question really depends on where the kratom comes from but in the majority of cases, yes (exceptions will be mentioned later). While some strain names have some traditional characteristics that may apply (super green, etc.), most of the time it is just random. Unfortunately, even the most "traditional" strain names can let you down... its all up to vendor interpretation. See this example of a freshly opened "Supergreen". Trust me, the lighting in this picture actually helps it a bit... in real life its look more like a cross between white and yellow.




***However, it is important to remember that the drying method aka “vein color” can/does have an effect on a leaf’s characteristics. Therefore, even though the “strain” name usually doesn’t have much meaning, the “vein color” more often than not will.***

As I shared in previous posts, the vast majority of kratom that is imported comes from bulk suppliers who buy up leaves from all kinds of different anonymous sources. Armed with that knowledge it’s pretty easy to understand why “strains” are not a real thing in most cases. At the milling factory, the leaves are usually (not always) sorted into piles visually by color and then they are poured into the milling machine together. Few suppliers will keep the leaves from one lot/farm intact, but most suppliers will mill all of the leaves at once and then sort the final product by matching like colors. At this point, they may have anywhere from 5-10 different pigments of powder and will begin slapping names on them. If they have an abundance of any one pigment, they will sometimes blend it with another color to create a whole new “strain”. When a US vendor is ordering from an Indo supplier, they are given a dizzying amount of options. If you ask for something they didn’t already list for you, they will always let you know that they can get some in by tomorrow.

Many US vendors will just keep the strain names they were given and will repeatedly order those strains not having any clue that each time they are just getting some random leaf. You would think that this is something that these vendors would catch on to, but this charade is a key to the Indo suppliers profits so they will do everything they can to dismiss questions or accusations otherwise. Even if they do concede that strains are not real, they will usually try to convince you that they are different than everyone else… at their farm, they really do have different strains. Sometimes I like to see just how far they will take it - it would be mildly entertaining if I could get over the fact that I know they must think I’m an idiot.

Now there are some exceptions to this general practice, but they are far less common. A much smaller number of suppliers will be involved in the whole processing of kratom, farm to table. These suppliers might grow/harvest the leaves, dry the leaves, grind the leaves, mill the leaves, and then name/export the leaves. Although it certainly doesn’t always mean that their product will be better (in my experience some of these operations have quite been terrible), it does usually allow for more consistency between batches. Alternatively, some Indo suppliers do have individual farms that they will work with exclusively and they will always call the leaf from that farm a specific strain. In my early days of testing various suppliers, I spent a fortune trying to discern what suppliers followed what practices. Just about everything you are told is misinformation and you sometimes offend the one supplier that is telling the truth because you are so skeptical (I had to learn a lot about Indonesian business culture… the relationship is everything). With that said, finding a consistent and high-quality Indonesian supplier can be expensive and exhausting. Sometimes the only way to fish things out is to make multiple orders and test them one by one for consistency (Ill share more about finding quality Indonesian suppliers in another post... there are some serious levels to that puzzle).

So what gives a kratom leaves their different properties if it's not a strain? The following is a list of SOME (not all) of the things that play a part in the alkaloid content of a leaf:

Age of trees (very important) – in most cases there is little to none of the desired alkaloids in trees under 3 years old, and usually, it doesn’t get decent until 5 years old. There are exceptions to this rule with certain
Drying method (mechanically, temperature, moisture, light, duration, etc…)
Age of leaves
Timing of harvest in relation to the last harvest
Tree “stressing”
Location of leaves on the tree (canopy, etc)
Soil Composition (minerals and moisture...very important)
Season when harvested
Mechanical separation method of the stems and vein (very important)
Sunlight (both before, during, and after dried)
Time of day leaves are harvested (best is after the morning dew but before the afternoon scorch)
Freshness when milled
Storage (exposure to the elements – oxygen, light, etc)
Milling texture
Milling temperature


Different leaf types, tree types, etc..

While there aren’t different strains of kratom, there are different leaf types. The different types of leaves can appear on different trees right next to each other and even on the same tree… how exactly that works is not fully understood. However, the importing thing to remember is that from the studies we have seen so far there isn’t a consistent difference in the alkaloid content of each type of leaf. I've asked a partner in Malaysia to provide some pictures of different leaf types as an example. Although Malaysian kratom is far less common than Indonesian (for legal reasons), I chose to use theirs as an example because it’s the only place where the different leaf types have standardized/recognized names. In Malaysia, there are 5 different leaf types - Jambu (rose apple), Pelam (mango), Biak Babi (pig), Hybrid, Elephant. Here are a few photos below:

Dried Jambu


Dried Pelam


Elephant 1


Elephant 2




Now bringing up Malaysian kratom probably brings some of you to say, “Wait a minute, I read a study that true-Malaysian and true-Thai kratom does have a different alkaloid profile”. This statement would be true on average, but not because it is a different genetic strain. It's well known that true-Malaysian kratom (not the stuff your vendor calls Malay or Malaysian) does on average when compared to Indonesian kratom have a lower % of Mitragynine and a higher % of 7ohm. Conversely, true-Thai kratom (not what your vendor calls Thai) on average has a much higher % of Mitragynine but almost zero % of 7ohm. However, the actual cause of these variations are not a result of being a different species, they simply have different growing conditions due to their geographical location (soil composition, climate, etc…).

To further confuse things, there are also different types of clone plants often marketed, but those are just names given to specific clones that are the predominant plants in the growing community. The most common examples are:
Rafat – names after the botanist, Clyde Rifat, who collected in in Thailand.
Bumblebee (or Bee) rumored to have been originally collected in Vietnam.

Visually you can tell a difference between the two plants, but there is much debate about which one of these common clones produces a more desired alkaloid profile. There are just too many variables that come in to play to accurately determine that. Some Indonesian suppliers have also gotten into the clone branding game, and will pitch their plantation as special clones from an exclusive type of tree.

So, to recap – most of the kratom imported come from leaves that are collected from hundreds of miles around and are thrown into big collection points. Suppliers buy from these leaf brokers and take it back to the factory to mill. The powder is then organized by color and given a name. That is how a strain is made.

But why is this hoax so prevalent in the industry even though the Internet is here to debunk things like this? The truth of the matter is that strain names can/do serve a purpose and myself as a vendor use them for the following reasons:

 Good vendors (like several on this forum) will source from suppliers that have full control/consistency over where they get their leaves. If a vendor sticks with the same name for each type of leaf from specific farms, this will lead to more consistent characteristics. This gets tricky though because most vendors will claim their suppliers do this (out of gullible ignorance or dishonesty), when in reality they don’t. However, even the most dedicated to this process will not always get it perfect. I can tell you first hand that leaves from the very same tree can produce different effects on the next harvest because of all of the other different variables at play.
 Some strain names have “traditional” characteristics that vendors can follow. Some vendors will do sample testing on every strain before selling and through feedback, they learn that the characteristics don’t match the original strain name, they will change the name before releasing it for sale to customers.

 As I mentioned before, most vendors keep the names they were given by the suppliers, but some will rename them according to the region it came from (if they actually know that information). For example, some vendors will have strain names that nobody else has heard of because they will name it after the area it actually came from. What is funny about this is you will sometimes see other vendors begin copying those strains if it becomes popular.

 It's fun. My closest partners don’t even bother labeling my orders with strain names. I already know what trees they came from and how they were processed. However, if a strain has a particularly special characteristic, I will sometimes ask my partners to give it a special name. For example, I have a strain recently that we called “Red Hangat Suma”. This is because customer feedback kept using the words “warm blanket” in test reviews. My partner named it “Hangat” because hangat is “warm” in Indonesian. What you end up with is a Warm leaf from Sumatra. See… isn't that fun?

 Finally – like “vein colors” if a vendor didn’t follow the program they would be positioning themselves terribly from a business standpoint. Offering green veins #1-12 just doesn’t speak to customers.

[gumbyke1]

So another posting is long overdue. I was browsing the forum for inspiration on my next posting, and it jumped out to me clear as day. I have seen a lot of posts lately about people concerned that they were "ripped off" by indo vendors or had their packages seized by customs, so I thought I would do a quick write-up on what you can expect if you try to take a swing at importing. What I aim to do here is to simply shed light... I am in no way giving personal advice on whether you should/should not give importing a try.

Before I continue, I want to preface by saying that the ugly things I describe below are NOT representative of the Indonesian population as a whole, I am only referring to those who are dishonest. Every country has its share of cheats and liars (I am convinced that we in the USA probably have more of that share).

What specifically inspired this post is I recently read a post about somebody reporting that the current fires in Indonesia are causing delays with kratom shipments. While this may be true (airports have been closed the past 2 days) when I read that they were not getting tracking information it immediately gave me flashbacks of a time I was "ghosted" by an Indonesian supplier.

The fires are a somewhat annual occurrence due to farmers who are clearing land for the Palm industry, but some unscrupulous suppliers will use events like this and others as an "excuse" to have "lost your order". I wish I still had the transcript from my conversation with the guy who ripped me off a long time ago during the fires because it was so ridiculous that it was somewhat comical. In short, weeks after he accepted my payment for my 5kg order, his updates began to become less and less frequent. Eventually, he stopped responding to me. Of course, the payment method I used was not refundable (which is not a coincidence), which really left me scratching my head as to what to do. I got clever and created another account and acted as a new potential customer. When I flipped in on him and revealed who I was, he claimed that all of his shipments either got burned in the fire or were lost due to the logistics chain being in disarray. What terrible luck this guy had... all of the trucks carrying his product burned in the fire and the trucks that did not get burned just got "lost"? He then had the nerve to ask if I wanted to make a replacement order and he even kindly offered me a small discount (which was presented as a nice favor). When I declined, he just stopped responding to me again... and I knew that was the end of it.

When I was first getting into the industry, I was very naive and it absolutely baffled me how somebody could just take my money and stop responding to me. After several losses right off the bat, I realized that I wasn't in Kansas anymore…. despite the nice website, this wasn’t like ordering off Amazon. I set out to understand why/how this could happen, and quickly learned the expensive lessons of what can go wrong.


1. Theft -

In my professional career, I learned there are primarily two things that cause people to commit acts of theft against the company for which they work. Most people who committed a theft did so because a perceived foolproof opportunity was there to tempt them. Opportunity is the keyword here - some people just can't help themselves from making a quick buck when the easy opportunity presents itself. Hardly anyone applies for a job with the intent of stealing from them, most people are just seeking employment. However, some people when presented a situation where they believe they can steal cash and there is no way anyone could detect it, they go for it. As a company, our greatest defense against theft had very little to do with actually trying to catch people who were stealing, and everything to do with giving the impression that if you try to steal, you will be caught. We had all kinds of policies and processes that were there simply to give employees the impression that things are tightly controlled and monitored (although they absolutely were not). All of these hoops our employees had to jump through are there strictly to eliminate the perception of “cost-free” opportunities.

Unfortunately, when ordering “grey-market” products from overseas, a lot of opportunities can present themselves on both sides of the transaction. I want to emphasize the “both sides of the transactions” because Americans are the original scammers in this game (I know shocking, right?). It used to be that you could work out agreements of paying for your order either partially or fully once the packages have cleared customs. You will never see those days again without a long-standing partnership, because Americans were quick to discover that it was very easy to just disappear on your Indonesian supplier once the goods were delivered.

When a scam takes place, the victim often has very few options for recourse. Most suppliers only accept payments that are non-refundable. If you think you got lucky because the supplier you buy from accepts Paypal, you should note that you do not have the consumer protections that are normally built into making a Paypal purchase when you are buying kratom. If you try reporting to Paypal that the charge was a “fraudulent charge” you will likely find that your Paypal account is permanently banned for using it to buy kratom (they do not allow that). Before you think, “I’ll take them down with me”, you should know that your Indonesian supplier has tons of “throw-away” PayPal accounts…. you are not really hurting them.

If you step back and look at the facts of these transactions, its not hard to understand why these unfortunate circumstances can occur if you are dealing with a dishonest person. When I think about it, I’m actually quite impressed and it gives me faith in humanity to know that scams are not occurring every other transaction. Let’s do a quick thought experiment… How comfortable would you be purchasing something for several hundred dollars from a stranger on Craigslist? Would it matter if you were required to pay in advance and the only thing you have to identify that person is an email address? Would it matter that this stranger was overseas? I think you get the idea here. (can I just say that it's pretty amazing that we will overlook all logic in the pursuit of quality kratom?)

So we all know that the counterbalance to opportunity is cost. With that, let's examine what costs are involved for an Indonesian supplier that scams a customer. What can they potentially lose? Usually its not much. Unless you have connections in the Indonesian government, or an Indonesian lawyer, etc… , the only thing that supplier will lose is you as a customer. Sometimes you can threaten them with ruining their reputation, but that only sometimes works if they believe you clout in the industry/community. The best you can probably do is post about it on this forum or the scammer groups, but I would estimate that all of those communities combined make up less than 1-2% of the total consumer population. Besides, if it gets really bad, a quick name change and operating under multiple identities is all that is needed to continue on (more on name changing and multiple identities in a later post).

Being that losing you as a customer is the only real cost, let's examine just how valuable you are as a customer. We should first point out what should be obvious… if you are a small purchaser, your value as a steady revenue stream is equally small. I used to assume that the kratom “farmers” must be rolling in dough. What I have come to realize is:
1. They are not really farmers (in most cases… you know this by now if you have been reading and not skimming).
2. There isn’t as much money in it for these Indonesian suppliers as you would think.

Most of the suppliers like to deal only in large/bulk orders because that is primarily the only way they can make decent money off it. There just isn’t that much profit per kg to make small customers important.

So how much do they make? Well, there is a wide range of costs involved in the Indonesian supplier for each kg of kratom, but the shipping itself is often the greatest costs. Again, there are big variations on the shipping costs, but for small orders shipping can cost anywhere from $18-$25 per kg (now that DHL is not an option). When you add in the initial cost of acquiring the kratom (which can vary greatly depending on how close they are to the source), and their labor, they just are not making that much money off small orders. Sure they make some money, but it's not like they are worried if you are going to order from them again in 8 months when you run out of the 5kg’s you ordered. However, on the flip side just taking your money and disappearing does present a nice profit!

Let's be very generous and assume they make $20 off of your $250 order. How many repeat orders would that take to equal out the profits of just disappearing with your money? (for those who are bad at math, its 12.5 times).

What about large volume customers? If you really know what you are doing, you can reduce the risk, but the risk still isn’t zero. Although not nearly as common, the obvious fact is that there are some HUGE profits to be made in disappearing with a large sum of money. Have you ever wondered why some of your favorite vendors suddenly shut down or go out of business? Sometimes its because they got burned, and when its for tens of thousands of dollars, it burns really bad. Whenever I see a popular vendor closing shop, I always assume its because they suffered a huge loss… one big enough that they cant recover or don’t have the stomach to deal with it anymore. Ive actually seen it on both of the transaction - a long relationship of trust is made, but one side decides to exit the business without telling the other (taking a huge payday with them to fund their retirement).

Then there is sheer desperation. Remember when I said there are two things that would cause people to commit theft? One is the opportunity, the other is despair… often in the form of the financial crisis. If you wonder what could make a supplier throw away an important/regular revenue stream, financial desperation can do the trick. Whether it be the inability to pay for a family members medical operation, accruing a gambling/drug debt, or even just feeding the family, good people can throw away a profitable customer when their backs are against a wall.


I’d like to be able to tell you how often these scams happen, but I don’t really think I am the right person to answer that. Perhaps another vendor could chime in here. I have always shied away from working with the “big suppliers” and have always worked more off the beaten path. With that, I think I have probably had more troubled run-ins than most experience. Once you can establish a long working relationship, the odds of something bad happening is more likely to shift on the importing sides of things (more on customs later). I mostly deal with a small handful of close people, so its not as much a concern for me now.

However, I still like to venture out with small “test” orders when I learn of somebody in a new area, and I run into trouble enough that I have had to employ the services of an Indonesian lawyer to represent me whenever there is an issue. You can see below a recent example of somebody who started to ignore my messages from a small order I paid for over 2 months ago (worth $1,750). You can see after a week of ignoring me, he miraculously replied just 6 minutes after my lawyer finished speaking with him.














This post is far from finished… I still need to go into other things you need to consider like the legal ramifications (yes... sometimes they falsify the paperwork and YOU are the person responsible for it), importation seizures, and the quality risk of small purchases. However, for time's sake, I’m going to pause for now and finish it up at a later time.

So should you roll the dice with an overseas purchase? Maybe... that's really something that comes down to the individual. I think most people who order for personal use lean towards the point of view that the security of ensuring your order arrives with the quality you expect is worth the extra $10-$20 you will spend ordering form a trusted domestic vendor. There are even a growing number of US vendors that only buy wholesale from domestic suppliers (which isn't a bad alternative to consider). However, I don’t want to leave this incomplete with the impression that importing is not worth trying if you have the financial resources and stomach to absorb a loss. To quickly summarize an incomplete thought, I would say importing is not a bad route IF you can live with experiencing a total loss and have fully researched how to do so legally (and understand the legal ramifications for not doing it properly). It may not happen your first order, order you second, but you can rest assured that it IS likely to happen at some point, especially if you do not know what you are doing (either scammed, customs, or dirt quality). For folks that are not strapped for cash, it might be an interesting and worthy experience to roll the dice, just make sure you do your research! However, if you live on a tight budget and losing a large purchase like that would set you back, I would probably not recommend it. One of the saddest things I have seen in this community is somebody who was extremely strapped for cash place a decently sized order directly from Indo in an attempt to shave off a few bucks from their expenses. It didn't work out, and that person was devastated.

Importing kratom is kind of like people who ride motorcycles: Its fun to ride, but it's not a matter of if you will wreck, it’s a matter of when you do, how bad will it be.

PS - If you have been recently scammed or are worried about a current deal, PM me. I can't guarantee I can help you, but I will for sure try!

[gumbyke1]

***The following is cut and pasted from a comment I made on the second page of this thread. I wanted to bring it forward because I know that most people dont read all of the comments (however, I think you should... lots of people have chimed in with some good stuff).

After reading through what I Initially wrote, I recognized with that much of this thread has covered some rather unpleasant things. I also recognize that if this were your only exposure to how our partners in Indonesia operate, it might not leave the greatest impression. Some of the most amazing people I know are my great Indonesian friends who I have met through the industry. Seriously... the Indonesians I've had the pleasure of working with are incredible people. With that, its important to me that everyone sees the comments I made below.****


I realize from reading your comment that it may come across like I'm Chicken Little screaming the sky is falling, I think perhaps I could do a better job of not being so in your face with some of the information. I think part of that maybe that this is a very unfinished post, I have a lot of good and bad to still go through. Even still I hope that with the bad so far that it isn't overlooked that I've stated there are responsible vendors and suppliers that do things in a way that would be acceptable to us all. I certainly hope that I don't paint a picture that all Indonesians involved in this industry are unsavory characters... that would be incredibly inaccurate.

Some of the most honest and hardworking people I know are in this industry on the Indonesian side of things. Some of those folks I would consider family... it would be a great disservice to them and this community if I didn't make that clear. I'd like to share a message I received just yesterday as a perfect example of that. The picture attached is a message from one of my partners over there who jumps through all kinds of hoops to execute these crazy processing methods we come up with (trust me... we try anything in search of the perfect leaf, lol). I asked him how much he was going to charge per kilogram of kratom for a very unusual and difficult drying method that I know will take a lot of labor. From his first response, I thought I had misunderstood due to a bad translation (we use google to translate everything), so I asked him again a few minutes later. His response was very much the same the second time.

I HOPE PEOPLE LOOK AT THIS PHOTO BECAUSE THIS IS AMAZING



Google translate makes it broken English so Ill spell out his reply in case it wasn't clear. He said I can decide what to pay him, the price is up to me. Let me give you a little more context here... I am asking this man to dry a large quantity of leaves, using a very labor intensive method, that requires electricity and air conditioning (air conditioning is not common in parts of Indonesia). He only has access to electricity at night time and his response is "I will figure it out, you decide what to pay me". Oh and guess what, he is going to document every step of it so I can trust it's being done to my specifications. Wow. I mean can you even imagine any business person in the US adopting that attitude? I am humbled by some of the friends I have made over there... truly humbled. I hope nobody reads my posts and assumes I have a lack of respect or appreciation for the great folks out there.

You are absolutely correct that not every farmer or harvesting village is processing their leaves in the manner I showed, but I am absolutely certain that there is a lot of that going on. I planned on posting more photo examples as it's relevant to the posts I make later, but I may reconsider if the general consensus is that I am creating hysteria on the subject. Im very open to feedback on what everyone wants to see/learn about... I definitely don't want to post things that upset or hurt the community. Either way, I appreciate you giving me inspiration to reflect on it.

I think something that we should all keep in context is something you actually said on another post. People are not getting sick left and right from ingesting kratom. I've been an everyday user of kratom for a very, very long time and I myself have only been sick once as a result of contaminated kratom (in another post I can go into how I knew it was contaminated before somebody points out that I can't be sure it was the kratom). The fact is that most people using kratom have probably never received any kind of illness from it. When I began to learn about some of these more unsanitary practices, I kind of shrugged it off at first thinking that must be some random backwoods stuff that isn't very common. However, as I became more and more educated about it I could clearly see that it's not a one-off thing. It certainly gave me pause with my personal use and caused me to do a lot more digging/investigating into the people I work with. It didn't stop me from using kratom, but I think I'm a lot better off for knowing what I need to watch out for. It's uncomfortable and I don't like it, but its what I know to be true.

I think it's just good for the community to be aware that it exists, and we all have our own reasons why. Say if I had a compromised immune system or something, I would certainly want to know about potential risks so I can make informed decisions.

What is really tricky is that even some of the more well known "trusted" sources in Indonesia can be misleading... mostly in the name of profits. I've personally have caught one of these well-known suppliers in acts of dishonesty. Some may consider the lies minor, but they revealed to me that they too were not above attempting to misrepresent things when they believed it would benefit them financially.

With that said, I think my next addition to this post will be to share some of the common "hustles" that some of the Indo suppliers run.

[gumbyke1]

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[gumbyke1]

Every once in a while we get a post about Stem and Vein, so I thought maybe it would be useful to put some info here about it. Below is a direct copy and past from a comment I made on a stem and vein post - so please excuse the missing context and the poor pictures (these pictures were not taken for this demonstration... its just what I had handy at the time). If you care to see the original thread, you can see it here. viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3952

Before digging into my comment I want to say there is probably plenty more I will end up writing on Stem and Vein - but since Im needing sleep right now I am just pasting what I already wrote for now


STEM AND VEIN
I thought I would chime in my 2 cents here. Outside of the "traditional" uses of S&V, I always believed that visible S&V in a batch was an automatic sign of inferior quality (this opinion was just based off of what I had always read). However, my opinion on that has been changed. I would say most of the time removing the midrib aka "stem" does produce a better product, but it certainly is NOT always the case. In regards to removing all of the veins and veinlets - that requires very sophisticated machinery that to my knowledge nobody is using for kratom production (I by no means claim to know what every single producer is doing, so please somebody correct me if I am wrong). For the sake of not getting too far into the weeds, lets just call it all S&V .

We have done countless consumer tests of the same leaf that has been "de-veined" versus leaving the midrib intact. Some of our best batches have tested better with the midrib left in them. We do not have a fool-proof understanding of when the midrib will enhance the batch vs lowering its quality, but we have recognized one specific pre-harvest variable that seems to influence it.

Regarding the grind - the grind of a batch is more a result of the machinery used to mill it (and is more of a personal preference thing). Leaving the S&V in a batch won't necessarily produce a coarse grind, but the S&V will be much easier to see with the naked eye the more coarse a grind is. When a batch is milled " coarse" you are likely to see what looks like S&V even if the midrib has been removed because there are still veins/veinlets left in the leaf no matter what you do (again, unless you have some very technical machinery). In addition to coarse grinds making it very easy to see, you can often feel it in your mouth... it's a very foreign feeling if you are not used to it.

Let me show you an example... (pardon the clutter in the photos - these are just pictures I had on hand that I am making work for this demonstration. The could be better, but I think they will work well enough)

The below picture shows 3 different grinds from a very high-quality batch we sometimes make very small quantities of called Red Hangat Suma. Since this specific batch was string-dried, the S&V was left intact before milling. As you can see, with the sample on the left you just can't see any S&V by the naked eye, and it gets a bit more visible as the texture gets more coarse.



Now, here is a picture of the fine sample magnified:



And further magnification if you can see it on the computer screen (I know its not very clear, if anyone cares I can take better photos specifically for this topic)




In conclusion, outside of the "traditional" use of S&V, there is still a place for S&V to enhance batches in some scenarios. We have a batch in testing right now that is coarse and "veiny". Its a beautiful sloooow green that I personally am loving.

[gumbyke1]

I saw somebody ask interesting questions the other day on the forum and decided to chime in. Several folks found the info useful and it was suggested that I add it to this thread.

The initial question posed was asking how much time you should before using the same "strain" again to avoid same-strain syndrome (as most folks know, kratom is most effective when you keep your body "guessing" by implementing the practice of "strain rotation"). Here it is directly pasted from the origonal post:

Two part question: How long do y'all wait to burn the same strain? I usually wait at least a week since I feel like if its any sooner, the effects arent as profound. Also, for example, say you have a pmd from a vendor from multiple harvests ago and you acquire a "new batch" of the same pmd. Does the same rule apply? (Given that is actually from the same trees)


While I was happy to share my personal opinion thoughts on the first part of the question, it was the second part of their question that drew a more thorough response. More or less they were asking if a new batch of the same "strain" should be treated as the same "strain" or a completely different "strain". I'm really glad this person asked the question because I see traces of this logic all over the forum, all the time.

The reality is that there is a great misconception that batch to batch, strains from your favorite vendor are relatively the same. However, the vast majority of the time (not all), this just isn't the case. Below is why you should treat each batch of the same "strain" as an entirely new "strain", every time.

I would estimate that around 97%-99% of the time a vendor receives a new batch it is NOT just a later harvest from the same exact group of trees. The way that most of the industry is set up just doesn't support the possibility. What some of the better US vendors will do is order the same "strain" from the same Indonesian source, but what that means can vary completely depending on the Indonesian supplier.

If you have read through the rest of this post, you will already know that most "strains" are created by looking at the color of a giant bag of kratom powder and slapping a name on it. However, a very small minority of the better Indonesian suppliers might try to keep a semblance of integrity with their strains in the fact that "Bali A" will always be an indoor dried leaf from "Source A".

However, "Source A" can mean many things... below are a few of the most common (but not all) scenarios:
1. Source A might be a leaf broker who buys leaf from all over the area - basically anyone who brings them leaf to buy.
2. Source A could be a solo harvester that goes out alone or with a group and harvests wild trees from all over.
3. Source A could be a specific village/town where there is a collective industry of growing/harvesting and crushing.
4. Source A could be a collection of local farmers on a private social media platform.
OR
5. Source A can be a single plantation.

*Note - If you ask any Indonesian supplier, 100% of them will reassure you that they only use leaves from mature wild trees or their own farm that just so happens to have the highest quality of mature trees. They will go to great lengths to keep up appearances - dont be fooled

Option 5 is what would give you your best bet at having some-what of consistency between each batch, so lets explore that for a minute. If you are able to lock in leaves from a single source, you still have to contend with the fact that tree composition can vary wildly on the very same plot of land. Just because the trees on the same plot of land, it does not mean that all trees are created equal. There ia an endless list of variables that can greatly influence the alkaloid profile of a single tree (age of tree, physical location, human manipulations, frequency of harvest, soil content, moisture, etc....).

As an example - a specific line of our batches comes from the same source of wild trees. However, there are quite a few trees within this source and there are great compositional variances in the different sections due to the various geographical influences. For starters, trees that are located closer to the Hulu river experience different levels of moisture and have a much different soil composition than those that are further on the interior. Additionally, some of the trees are more spread out versus those that are tightly grooved resulting in different exposures to sun and wind. The list of differences goes on and on, and those are just variables that are the result of its physical location within the same plot of land.

To further complicate things, significant differences can occur within the very same cluster/section of trees as a result of human pre-harvest manipulations (applied nutrients, frequency of harvest, etc...). As you guessed, the list of possibilities here can get quite lengthy as well.

Take a quick look at the two pictures below. Both of these pictures show a great diversity of trees from a single source (this is private land that has both a plantation and very old wild trees). As you can imagine, the leaves from trees in each of these sections may produce a wildly different alkaloid profile (some more noticeable than others).




Now, let's say you were able to find a producer that is extremely diligent in cataloging small groups of trees as specific "strains". You still have to deal with all of the changes that have occurred simply as a result of the passed time between harvests (temperature, rainfall, pests, etc) - all of which are major influences in the production of secondary metabolites.

Finally, as the cherry on top - none of this takes into account the entire post-harvest production (harvest practices, drying technique, etc..)!

I can tell you from personal experience that it is very difficult to "re-create" the same batch of kratom months later, even when you try everything you can think of to make that happen. However, with the right conditions (some of those conditions are out of your control), it is possible to get pretty close.

Okay - if all of that wasn't enough for you to chew on, let's look at what can happen when you re-order the same batch of the same "strain". Most of our products come from a collection of high-value sources, but occasionally we like to experiment with an outsider if we hear that their product is currently "hot". Most of the time we are disappointed, but occasionally we at least get a good laugh from it. See exhibit A from one of those comical purchases:

"White Veitnam"


We had ordered 15kg of "White Vietnam" - believe it or not, all three of the kilograms in that picture were represented as "White Vietnam". Now as a vendor, I know to look out for this and it was very easy enough to spot (although usually its just 2 different colors...this was the first time I had 3). Knowing that refunds would be out of the question, I decided just to share the photo with the supplier to inform them that somebody on their team needed some training on packaging orders (if they dont have enough of the same exact batch to fill an order, they should use a different batch altogether instead of mixing different batches). I can't say I was fully surprised when the supplier re-assured me that all 3 were in fact "White Vietnam" and that light during the shipping process is probably responsible for some of the kg's fading in color. (while it is true that light can fade the color of kratom, it doesn't permeate through the entire kg, especially when all are vaccine sealed, in a dark cardboard box, and shipped at the same time.). At the end of the day, none of it was really "White Vietnam", but if I ask for 15kg's of 1 strain they should at least all be from the same batch.

As you can see, if your vendor is not on top of things, it would be possible for you to place a 2nd order of the same strain/batch and receive something entirely different. However, it should be noted that if you suspect that a batch you re-ordered is not the same as what you received the first time, there may be a non-nefarious reason.

In my early days as a consumer, I can recall a handful of times where I didnt receive what I believe I was getting. I can remember one situation where I had received a free sample of something that I liked and quickly ordered a kilogram of it. What arrived was nothing like the sample I had, and my automatic assumption was that I had been a victim of a bait and switch. I took it as a slap in the face and never did business with that vendor again, despite them being one of my favorites. Knowing what I know now - I can see that my assumptions were probably misguided and that vendor probably didnt deserve my ire. With that, there are a few things consumers should know regarding assumptions that you are a victim of a bait and switch:

1. The more you use the same batch of kratom, the less effective it becomes (in general). It's very possible that after testing a sample of something, what you experience in the 3rd, 4th, 5th time will not be close to what you experienced the first or second time.

2. It's also very possible that your body chemistry has changed substantially in the time between uses. How many times have you heard the suggestion to "revisit" batches that haven't worked for you in the past? I'll say it over and over again, body chemistry is a significant factor in how you perceive kratoms effects. Just a few days is enough time for your perceived quality of a batch to change.

3. The environment (light, air, etc...) can change the color of kratom and surprisingly it doesn't take that long to see a change (IMO these changes are cosmetic only - you will not notice a loss in potency as a result of color fading). As a result, the kratom from order 1 could look slightly/very different from the kratom in order 2, even if they truly are from the exact same batch.

We prepare hundreds of small test samples of each batch when we are getting ready for consumer testing and then the rest of the product is immediately vacuum-sealed. The test samples are hand sealed in clear-polymer bags, while the rest of the product is vacuum-sealed in foil-lined impervious bags. We usually have a lot of samples left over, which we give away as freebies with orders. As you can imagine, over time our samples will begin to fade, resulting in two different looking products that are in all other measures that are exactly the same. The change usually isn't very drastic since they are both sealed, but it's certainly enough to notice if you held them side-by-side. I can imagine that if a vendor does not implement good storage practices that the color of their products could fade pretty significantly, especially if an item has been on the menu for a long time.

4. Mislabeling - it happens. If you receive a second-order that is obviously something completely different than your first order just let your vendor know. With the high-volume of packaging vendors do, its entirely probable that they will place an incorrect label on a package or two. The vendor should be able to troubleshoot with you to figure out if you received the right product with the wrong label or the wrong product with the right label (it goes both ways).

To me, one of the most heinous things a vendor could do is intentionally misrepresent something or bait and switch - in my eyes its the ultimate disrespect to their customers. I have to think that when confirmed cases of receiving the wrong product exist that it was probably unintentional, there really are a few things that can go wrong that are not nefarious.

With all of that said, this doesn't mean there are absolutely no similarities between different batches of vendors same "strain". How similar/consistent sequential batches will be will vary by vendor, depending on all of the things mentioned above. There are some vendors that prioritize consistency - all to varying degrees. As mentioned before, some may try to order the same "strains" from the same suppliers while others may take it a step further by re-naming batches based on their effects (in an attempt to better meet their customer's expectations). Further still, there are a tiny minority of vendors who actually work with the supplier to "craft" kratom to exact specifications.

No matter which of the above hold true for your vendor, it should be noted that the simple power of suggestion can be a scarily powerful thing. My guess would be the vast majority of folks who swear by a specific strain from vendor XYZ - much of that is in your head

[gumbyke1]

*Note - Some details of the stories below were changed for the sake of privacy.

A little while ago a peer vendor shared some heartbreaking news. They hit a bit of a snag with their business and this one was big enough that it was going to take them under... way under. This person was a smaller vendor and was barely scraping by. In an effort to get the cost of their product down (to improve gross margin), they decided to take out a loan to make a bulk purchase. As you can probably guess by the tone of this post - this purchase never made it to its destination. Now my friend is out of product and is left holding the note to a loan they have no means of paying.

Sadly, I've heard this story many times - every vendor knows a vendor who has suffered a similar fate (legal problems, bankruptcy, etc...). But learning of this one was especially rough for me because I consider this person a friend and had given them industry advice many times.

Of course, when you learn of things like this, its natural to look for what you can learn from them. I couldn't help but look at how it occurred and wonder what I would have done differently. Unfortunately, the more I look at the situation, the more I recognize that this person didnt really do "anything the wrong way". As a vendor, it's very sobering.

Before I ever got into vending, I was pretty aware that it was no walk in the park. Just the idea of constantly living in a world of legal risk is more than what most folks want to deal with (I assure you that the vendors who have been arrested/imprisoned for vending kratom never planned for it to happen to them). However, I realize now that as a consumer - I really had no idea how crazy things can get. With that, I thought that sharing some of the things you run into as a vendor might be interesting for some, and at the very least, might help you appreciate your vendor just a tad bit more .


What Can Happen

There are many different categories of obstacles that immediately come into mind when thinking of how to organize this post (legal, importing, bad product, theft, corruption, banking, etc...). I quickly realized that I could spend all week writing about various situations I have seen or experienced, but for the sake of my time, I am just going to things here going forward as I come across them (that means this post will probably update many times in the future).

So I figured I would start with my latest little speed bump and it took me no more than looking back a few weeks back to find one. It should be noted that as a vendor, you get approached by scammers pretty much non-stop. If there is somebody that thinks they can get an angle on you, they will go for it. Usually, it's not too much of a problem, but occasionally the people trying to squeeze you actually have the ability to hinder your operation.... you can't ignore them. The line between scamming and extorting can be a thin one, but sometimes they go ahead and make it crystal clear that you're dealing with extortion.

Ill share a few screens shots that help illustrate the situation - but I won't be including everything. Also, some details of the below scenario have been hidden/changed to protect privacy.


It was the end of January and I was expecting some final shipments from the January Harvest to come in. We were experiencing some delays with some rather large shipments, but there really wasn't anything jumping out as a major reason for concern. It's not uncommon for me to get phone calls at all hours of the night because Indonesia is on the opposite side of time as us. So when my phone started ringing a bit more frequently than normal, I didnt really think much of it (I completely ignore calls from numbers that are not saved in my contacts). However, things changed on a dime one evening when I received a text message from a number who has been calling me several times a night. The text message started with "Hello" and included a picture of my packages (clearly addressed to me). I instantly knew that I wasn't going to like what came next. Oh boy.... here we go again.






Okay, so some random stranger has my packages and is telling me there are some shipping problems (what else is new). Thankfully out of the kindness of their heart are willing to help me ship them via another provider (to save me from scammers). How kind of them.

They also suggest that maybe I ask for a refund from my supplier (yeah right!). Hmm... I wonder why they would want me to do that? I doubt it is because he wants me to re-buy the kratom from him.










Oh - he is a customs officer. Well, that took a turn for the worse. Thankfully he only wants to offer his help because " I see your shipments a lot".










Oh great, a way out! He can help me make sure that my packages get through for the low low price of more than what the packages cost to begin with. Thank goodness!

Seriously though - this was not a good situation to be in. I really wanted to packages that were being held up, but I've seen enough movies to know that if you pay somebody once, that just means they will go out of their way to find your packages every time. You might as well tattoo a picture of an ATM to your forehead. The only move you can make here is to take the loss and pray they leave you alone... and its a BIG loss.

Oh, wait a minute... I forgot I know some great folks over there! Maybe they can help...



THE NEXT DAY







Well that was easy!

Before vending, I would have never imagined some of the harry situations that a vendor has to navigate through. I know for me it was a very sobering experience when I ran into my first obstacle. If I hadn't previously been blessed with a successful career before I started vending, there is just no way I could have stomached moving on after my first few incidents. Its a costly and risky endeavor.... maybe let you favorite vendor know how much you appreciate them after reading this

Ill share more stories another time!

[gumbyke1]

We are knee-deep in an open-order event right now so it hardly seems like the best time for me to update our “Behind the Scenes” post. However, this one will be very quick and easy as its primarily a cut and paste from an email that I have been sharing with members for probably a year or two now (I hope you guys don’t mind me recycling old emails). I was actually am thinking that posting this now may save me some time with replying to event emails, as a common question asked in orders is “Are any of the strains I selected fermented?”.

The vast majority of kratomites (including many vendors) are unaware of what processes/curing techniques are involved in the production of various types of kratom. This is probably most obvious when it comes to describing those rusty brown batches.... you know the fermented ones (or are they?). Probably one of the most common questions I get asked about some of the "reds" on our menu is "are any of those batches fermented at all?". What I have come to learn is that when customers are asking if a batch is fermented, what they are actually wanting to know is if the physical color of the powder is red/brown. To their credit, most vendors are just as confused about the topic... its no wonder why so many people believe red powder = fermentation. Nonetheless, there is a very good reason why that question is so popular, and it has to do with the fact that many of those batches are just sub-par in quality (and it has nothing to do with fermentation). I know there are some hard-core kratomites who are fans of the brown stuff, but the reality is that on average, far more people have better experiences with green/white powders. A lot of consumers over time come to recognize this on their own accord but the reasons behind it are not what you think.

Anyone who has read through the forum has seen this statement "I don’t like fermented strains, I don’t seem to have luck with them”. The reality is, most people (including most vendors) are completely confused as to what a "fermented batch" is. Most vendors believe that if a powder is red/brown, that means its been fermented - naturally, this misnomer trickles down to the rest of the community. In fact, most of the "bent" sold here in the US is not fermented at all but is instead heavily oxidized kratom that was produced on the cheap with little to no concern for quality or safety. Please notice that I said most – there certainly are some fantastic red/brown colored powders out there and oxidized batches can be produced with safety/sanitation in mind. I don’t want to paint the idea that you should never entertain a red powder again, Im a big fan of a few select "reds". In fact, when red/brown powders are produced with intent there can be some fantastic outcomes. There are some very interesting techniques that we have adopted from the tea industry that have produced some very positive results. The problem is, of course, how do you know if the red/brown powder you are buying was made that way responsibly and with purpose, or if its made that way because it’s the cheapest/easiest way to do so? Unfortunately, I don’t have an answer for that...

I think I could go on and on about this, but I promised myself I would keep this post quick/short so that I can get back to orders (I’m sure those who are waiting for their orders would appreciate that). I’m going to end this post by providing a little context as to what I have pasted below. What you will read below was my reply to a customer who was inquiring if one of our batches at the time was fermented (I know some of you will remember the very first Sun-Dried Relaxing Red…. memories ). Per my usual, I got a little deeper in my response than what she was looking for, but I think it might be helpful to some folks nonetheless.


From Email:
The Sun-Dried Relaxing red is not fermented at all, but it is oxidized so it is brown in color. Oxidized kratom is commonly misidentified as fermented or "Bentuangie" - most people assume that a brown powder is a fermented powder. This is because most Indonesian suppliers will label any brown colored powder as "Bentuangie" because 99% of US vendors won't know the difference (so they sell it as Bentuangie). The reality is, most of the "Bentuangie" that Indo suppliers are selling is actually cheap and low-quality tarp-dried kratom. The leaves are left for days on a tarp or sheet (and sometimes dirt) in the open sun and the leaves react with the oxygen and begin to turn brown, much as leaves from a tree turn brown after they fall from the tree. The folks who dry like this have zero care for quality or sanitation- kratom might as well be grass clippings to them. The end result is what you might expect. There is TONS of this stuff floating around.

To be clear, fermentation is an anaerobic process that requires very specific time and temperatures to do well. Most suppliers/farmers who do attempt to make Bentuangie do so by just throwing wet leaves in a clear plastic bag and leaving it in the sun. Not only does that not usually produce good kratom - it's actually quite gross.... the end result is what you might expect. Oxidation involves exposure of kratom to oxygen and in the case of the Sun-Dried Relaxing Red, it was very much done deliberately (not just thrown on a tarp). The exact technique we used for this batch is a bit of a trade secret - but in general, we one can manually bruise the leaves prior to drying by doing a tear and roll technique or using a tumbler. Both technique ensure that there is an even level of oxidization throughout, which improves the end product. On the flip side (in case you were wondering), there are also techniques that can be applied to minimize or control the speed of oxidation as it’s a process that begins almost immediately after harvest.

A lot of people say they "I dont really get much from bentuangies". I would put money that most of those folks have never actually had a bentuangie. Most of the batches that are sold as "Bent" are just tarp/floor dried leaves that have been oxidized in the same way as leaves that fall off a tree onto the forest floor. The small percentage of batches that are actually fermented are most often pathetic attempts accomplished by putting kratom in plastic bags with moisture and tossing them in the sun until they look “done” (with no technique whatsoever).

Good Bentuangie is one of the hardest kratom batches to do well. I would imagine that the vast majority of "decent" bent batches are produced by sheer luck - as most producers do not treat it like a craft. One of my personal favorite batches is our Chocolate Bent... I can't tell you how many trials we had to do to land it, but we are pleased with the end result. I personally like to use it as a mixer, although I have to use a very hardy portion of it (much more than I usually do)...to get the desired results. Interestingly, I am able to go quite heavy on my serving size with bents without noticeable negative effects. It takes some tinkering to get it down but once you do its worth it.

Ill go grab some notes from some test recipes at the end of this email to give you an idea of what is involved in the production of a real bentuangie batch. Some steps have been changed and removed for IP purposes. Please not that I’m sharing this more as a reference of what the process can look like, not necessarily to represent the process we follow for our bents. Also, the notes were written in Indonesian and translated, so pardon the grammar!


Making or working process of ferment Test 34-c. Harvest is just after morning condensation group 12.

• First, we go through regular process of washing station and separating format, but not removing the mid-bone stem.

• Second, prepare enough containers and clean water. After that, put the fresh kratom leaves that were picked earlier, into a container filled with water. When soaking the leaves, increase 30cm from the surface of the leaves we soak. In order to get the color filter that we talked about.

• Third, let the kratom leaves soak for 2x24 hours. After the time process is over, we remove the kratom leaves from the water bath. After that, we put in the

• The fourth is the fermentation stage. soaked leaves. Put in the blue sanitize barrel. The comparison ratio is 1 20-liter plastic barrel, filled with 15kg of wet kratom leaves. After that, closed. So that there are no objects and light that enter into it and maintain the levels of the alkaloid.
Leave this process on, for 24 hours in a closed, an exact fixed temperature of 27 C. This process is an evaporation process for changing colors that are more changed

• Sixth, after the above process is complete. Take the leaves, to enter into the process of

• Eigth, this process is the drying stage. Leaves that have been washed, separated into a drying area in the room with a temperature of 27C-30C. A possible problem for record- the temperature maintained higher at 31-32C for 2 or 3 hours during power loss. There are two methods of drying were applied, the first method is normal drying like bat hanging with rope - test A. The second method test is to place the leaves in a long place of mild steel - Test B. Drying is done for 3-4 days. We always monitor the leaves, to see the shape changes as we want. leaves Don't be too long in the light, afraid of leaves turning color.

• Tenth, after the leaves are dried from drying. Separate the middle bone stem and discard from the leaf wing. Then prepare a fine sieve to form into crumbs.

• Eleven, after becoming crumbs. We must quickly do the grinding besi tahan with karat with a low temperature to get the desired color and alkaloids. Don't turn color. Grinding is done at least 2 times to produce fine flour. Quickly seal for sanitize and dont be too long in light.

* note
Processes 5 and 6 must be done in 1-2 days

[gumbyke1]

Place holder 18, please ignore.

[gumbyke1]

Place holder 19, please ignore.

[gumbyke1]

HOld 20

[gumbyke1]

Hold 21

[gumbyke1]

Hold 22

[Vigilante302]

Dude....this is awesome

[herbalhippie]

Incredible!

[herbalhippie]

I probably don't need to but I pinned it.

[instantKARMA]

Very informative........the amount of work and time involved assembling
this is very much appreciated!

Looking forward to further updates!

[kratomandmath]

This was great. Thank you for taking the time to compile all this. I wish scientific studies would be done on the different drying and processing techniques and possible change in alkaloid profile as a result. I'm not a pharmacologist or chemist by any means so Idk if that would be even a thing

[Payshince]

HOLY SHIT!

This is absolutely incredible
Gumbyke1

Can we start doing AWARDS here (e_poison)? Or herbalhippie?
This is severely informative and can only imagine whats more to come!

So much here I have lots of Respect for you thank you from me and the community.
You and Ballz need to combine your knowledge would be a Supernova of information!

WELL DONE!!!!

[lemondrop]

This is the kratom education I have dreamed of.

Although I have read snippets of some of these facts and some have been hinted at in this forum, this is the first time I've read anything that actually spells it all out in an easy to understand way with cultural and market context. I can't wait for more!!

Thank you so so much.

[guitartodd77]

Thank you for taking the time to share this information, Gumbyke1. So facenating. i'm looking forward to the next section.

[KBull]

Amazing and honest info. Thanks for your knowledge

[pray4peace4]

I've always known that the farmers were doing this kind of processing. I'm just surprised more people don't get sick. This also explains why most kratom is junk. It's seriously making me consider bailing. I'm fed up with buying product that's worthless. The reason people don't is that lingering hope that the next batch ordered will be great. But it never is. Nothing is like the stuff sold in 2016-2017. I'm glad I still have some left.

[trigger]

You’re like a peta activist for kratom showing us pictures of the slaughterhouse and telling us there’s pus and blood and feces in our milk.

[gumbyke1]

You’re like a peta activist for kratom showing us pictures of the slaughterhouse and telling us there’s pus and blood and feces in our milk.

“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.” It's your choice Trigger...do you want the red pill or the blue pill ?

If you take the blue pill—this post ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Double M wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember: all I'm offering is the truth. ...

[Ezriderx2x]

Keep it coming! Explain the truth behind lab testing you mentioned on discord. You rock man! We need this window of truth..many folks are making it up as they go or working with what farmers tell them. Without evidence based research we are simply blind.

[Theanine]

WOW, Gumbyke, truth to power, it must have taken a while to write up such a comprehensive information dump.

What are your thoughts on the so called Oven Dried Kratom like Hudson Valley Botanical's Green OV?

From a sample I received, it seemed VERY potent and smooth. What is your expert opinion on that?

Also, perhaps a silly question, but I have overbought the Greens and as a result have no Reds. Reds ferments make me sleepy, white/greens do not, so I can't really take it in the evening. Is it possible to put a bit of my Green out in the Florida sun for a day or two to achieve a red ferment?
I could then blend it with my Green for a balanced White? Will it work?

Btw, I agree that it is quite obvious that the Facebook is a dead end, nothing but scammers and drama, I am so glad that I have found this place!

Education is the key. Time is money and a lot of it was invested in this wealth of knowledge. Thank You so very much for this!

[Aedea]

WOW, Gumbyke, truth to power, it must have taken a while to write up such a comprehensive information dump.

What are your thoughts on the so called Oven Dried Kratom like Hudson Valley Botanical's Green OV?

From a sample I received, it seemed VERY potent and smooth. What is your expert opinion on that?

Also, perhaps a silly question, but I have overbought the Greens and as a result have no Reds. Reds ferments make me sleepy, white/greens do not, so I can't really take it in the evening. Is it possible to put a bit of my Green out in the Florida sun for a day or two to achieve a red ferment?
I could then blend it with my Green for a balanced White? Will it work?

Btw, I agree that it is quite obvious that the Facebook is a dead end, nothing but scammers and drama, I am so glad that I have found this place!

Education is the key. Time is money and a lot of it was invested in this wealth of knowledge. Thank You so very much for this!

I don’t believe you can ferment dry leaf as there aren't enough enzymes left for the process. The growers ferment fresh leaves in a plastic bag before drying.

Feel free to correct me is I’m wrong.

[herbalhippie]

“The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.” It's your choice Trigger...do you want the red pill or the blue pill ?

If you take the blue pill—this post ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill—you stay in Double M wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes. Remember: all I'm offering is the truth. ...

This gave me very pleasant chills.

[BallzDeep9]

I can say that I have figured out a GREAT deal, but I can't say that I have fully satisfied my calling. I'm hoping that my trip to Borneo at the end of this year will fill in the gaps, but I've also felt that many times before . After all of this, the only thing I can absolutely say I am certain of- is that things are much more complicated than they appear to be on the surface.

For anyone thinking "Who's this guy"- Gumby has more experience as a consumer, than most anyone on this board.

There are FACTS - And there are opinions. Of course much about kratom is a mystery.. maybe this Article should be pinned ? Many, many people who discover MM will find it amazing and helpful. One FACT that's easy to observe... things change over time. The kratom business has changed. Just over the past 18 months, Demand has exploded - leading to changes in Indo.

I hope you make your trip to Borneo, as soon as possible. Yes it should fill-in some knowledge gaps. We DO have direct accounts from those who've been there.. I have bunches of photo's sent to me, last year by a guy known as British Mitra Genie. He traveled to Pontianak... And he went up the river! Danny visited Hulu Kapuas, and other small villages.

Badger Silver on Reddit, has been there twice. Much information about colors, and strains, have been detailed on Reddit and covered in This Post. It seems like old news at this point, that strains are fake, and colors are manufactured - What we still don't know exactly, is HOW the various drying process leads to Fast or Slow effects?

Changes to the business, would include more diversity in harvesting and processing. Yes there WAS a Supply crunch, after the USA November 2017 Panic led to huge Demand. As the # of USA consumers boomed, so did the # of Indo's working to harvest, process, transport, broker and "hustle" the product...

However to suggest Blue Tarp drying methods are the norm, or represent the majority of Indo suppliers? Sensational yes, but I'd like to think there are NOW many, diverse, supply channels.. OK we've seen a terrible video of dirty kratom.. Now check out THIS YouTube video of JongKong Village. Obviously, they have made an investment here:

Jong Kong Village, Borneo = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWjGE0P3mos