Staggering Dose for Stronger Effects / Less is More

[mountainmango]

Long time kratom enjoyer here (about 9 years) and recently I've been staggering my dose instead of taking it all at once after a friend told me this method works better for him. I've been trying to experiment with different ways of splitting the dose and different durations between each split and I've had a few truly exceptional experiences in which the kratom has hit me the best it ever has since the honeymoon period, but it's still inconsistent.

I'm curious if anyone here staggers and, if so, what they've found their optimal dose split and timing to be. My best experiences so far have been from splitting my dose into thirds and taking each 1/3 30 minutes apart (so take 1/3, wait 30 minutes, take 1/3, wait 30 minutes, take final 1/3) or from splitting my dose in half and taking the second half about an hour and 15 minutes after the first half.

It seems like this may be related to the "less is more" phenomenon that after all these years I'm finally beginning to accept. I've tried in the past going up to 10+ grams in one dose, and while I never got nauseous or wobbles, I just didn't feel much of anything other than getting tired and sometimes a bit irritated. My typical staggered dose right now is 6 grams. Interestingly, I've realized that if I take 4 grams or more at one time it generally either does nothing noticeable to me or just makes me tired, but staggering 6 grams in the way I described above can produce some great effects. As a side note, I have also tried just sticking to the initial 2-3 gram dose without adding the rest of the staggered dose which does give me some noticeable (but very weak) effects. Perhaps I just need to stick to the 2-3 gram dose for longer to adjust my tolerance and really experience "less is more", but I do only dose 6 grams total on Friday and Saturday (and sometimes 4 grams total on Thursday) so I have a minimum of 4 days off each week which interestingly has never really seemed to help my tolerance as much as I would expect.

[Kelleytoons]

There is a thread I started a few weeks ago (a month ago?) about this.

The general consensus seems to be to take 2/3 your normal dose and about 30 minutes later your second. But (and this is key) the second dose can be ANYTHING (and probably should be something different, at the very least from another vendor, but even something that didn't hit previously. Any kind of kratom seems to work at that point).

My friend has a theory it is a "turbo" boost, kind of like a rocket. I don't know, but I've had excellent luck. Again, you do your first dose with your best stuff, as you normally would. And then follow it up with remnants of almost anything. I have a whole section of small pill bottles (since I use capsules I make myself) with the discards from the major ones I've put together. So I take four of my main, and then wait 30 minutes and take two more of any thing I happen to grab.

Unfortunately (or not, depending on how you look at it) there's almost no way to get this down to a science. There are literally millions of combos, particularly when you have 150+ batches like I have. I've had some amazing experiences this way, and others that are "meh". The good news is the "meh" is nearly always at least *good* (just not great).

[Loveandpeace]

There is a thread I started a few weeks ago (a month ago?) about this.

The general consensus seems to be to take 2/3 your normal dose and about 30 minutes later your second. But (and this is key) the second dose can be ANYTHING (and probably should be something different, at the very least from another vendor, but even something that didn't hit previously. Any kind of kratom seems to work at that point).

My friend has a theory it is a "turbo" boost, kind of like a rocket. I don't know, but I've had excellent luck. Again, you do your first dose with your best stuff, as you normally would. And then follow it up with remnants of almost anything. I have a whole section of small pill bottles (since I use capsules I make myself) with the discards from the major ones I've put together. So I take four of my main, and then wait 30 minutes and take two more of any thing I happen to grab.

Unfortunately (or not, depending on how you look at it) there's almost no way to get this down to a science. There are literally millions of combos, particularly when you have 150+ batches like I have. I've had some amazing experiences this way, and others that are "meh". The good news is the "meh" is nearly always at least *good* (just not great).

Here is that thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10298&p=102633&hili ... ge#p102633

[mountainmango]

There is a thread I started a few weeks ago (a month ago?) about this.

The general consensus seems to be to take 2/3 your normal dose and about 30 minutes later your second. But (and this is key) the second dose can be ANYTHING (and probably should be something different, at the very least from another vendor, but even something that didn't hit previously. Any kind of kratom seems to work at that point).

My friend has a theory it is a "turbo" boost, kind of like a rocket. I don't know, but I've had excellent luck. Again, you do your first dose with your best stuff, as you normally would. And then follow it up with remnants of almost anything. I have a whole section of small pill bottles (since I use capsules I make myself) with the discards from the major ones I've put together. So I take four of my main, and then wait 30 minutes and take two more of any thing I happen to grab.

Unfortunately (or not, depending on how you look at it) there's almost no way to get this down to a science. There are literally millions of combos, particularly when you have 150+ batches like I have. I've had some amazing experiences this way, and others that are "meh". The good news is the "meh" is nearly always at least *good* (just not great).

Here is that thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10298&p=102633&hili ... ge#p102633

I appreciate it. Wow - now that I look at my notes, every one of my exceptional experiences staggering actually all were when my second or third staggered dose was of a different batch or consisted partially of a different batch. I've mixed "strains"/batches many times dosing all at once, but maybe mixing and staggering is the key. I was focusing on the timing and ratio of the split, but maybe the mixing was what also played a big role in separating my so-so experiences from my outstanding ones. Seems promising. I'll experiment some more with this, thanks for both of your input.

[IjustFeltLikeRunnin’]

I have also had really good effects with this by taking something different and at very small amounts each dose. I’m assuming it’s a better way to get more of a mixture of alkaloids, and avoid the ceiling effect at the same time.

I use a 1/4 teaspoon to measure out my doses and have gotten even better results with less than a full scoop. So I might do 3/4 of a scoop of Rhino Grn Ketapang, then an hour later another 3/4 scoop of Okie Grn Bali, then an hour later 3/4 scoop of Otie SRMD, etc. etc.

[Loveandpeace]

There is a thread I started a few weeks ago (a month ago?) about this.

The general consensus seems to be to take 2/3 your normal dose and about 30 minutes later your second. But (and this is key) the second dose can be ANYTHING (and probably should be something different, at the very least from another vendor, but even something that didn't hit previously. Any kind of kratom seems to work at that point).

My friend has a theory it is a "turbo" boost, kind of like a rocket. I don't know, but I've had excellent luck. Again, you do your first dose with your best stuff, as you normally would. And then follow it up with remnants of almost anything. I have a whole section of small pill bottles (since I use capsules I make myself) with the discards from the major ones I've put together. So I take four of my main, and then wait 30 minutes and take two more of any thing I happen to grab.

Unfortunately (or not, depending on how you look at it) there's almost no way to get this down to a science. There are literally millions of combos, particularly when you have 150+ batches like I have. I've had some amazing experiences this way, and others that are "meh". The good news is the "meh" is nearly always at least *good* (just not great).

Here is that thread: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=10298&p=102633&hili ... ge#p102633

I appreciate it. Wow - now that I look at my notes, every one of my exceptional experiences staggering actually all were when my second or third staggered dose was of a different batch or consisted partially of a different batch. I've mixed "strains"/batches many times dosing all at once, but maybe mixing and staggering is the key. I was focusing on the timing and ratio of the split, but maybe the mixing was what also played a big role in separating my so-so experiences from my outstanding ones. Seems promising. I'll experiment some more with this, thanks for both of your input.

Oh and Mr. Mango,

I would like to add that the Kelley method of using a mediocre strain as the subsequent doses is a 'pro' style move. However, it becomes very popular among those that are new to this forum. It seems that many have been been through a cycle of hit/miss purchases.

[Kelleytoons]

I would like to add that the Kelley method of using a mediocre strain as the subsequent doses is a 'pro' style move.

LOL - I kind of like the thought that we have "pro" Kratom users. Yes, there's a whole other league, and we recruit from the minors but, when you are ready, you move on up. Right now in the standings Mr. B is the head of that league (and I'm still a rookie but coming onto the end of the first season).

[Loveandpeace]

I would like to add that the Kelley method of using a mediocre strain as the subsequent doses is a 'pro' style move.

LOL - I kind of like the thought that we have "pro" Kratom users. Yes, there's a whole other league, and we recruit from the minors but, when you are ready, you move on up. Right now in the standings Mr. B is the head of that league (and I'm still a rookie but coming onto the end of the first season).

Lol... this made me laugh. A nice break to a down day.

[brian b]

So, very cool to see this thread, as i've been enjoying kratom for about 4 years. My wife and i take it every day. My usual is 2 doses of 5 grams, one in the morning after coffee, and the other at around 2pm. I switch up strains and vendors daily, but this staggered method might be helpful w my big tolerance. I feel like most reds now across vendors are not hitting as they did in previous years. Greens are my fave, i'm a chef in a kitchen all day, and greens are my go-to. I figure i should really taper and not take any for some time, but that hasnt happened yet! Still tryin to figure out why my damn body adapts so quickly to strains. My wife does not have this problem. She'll take a strain one day, and still enjoy it if taken the next. I dont get it! My overactive immune system might have somethin to do w it, but very frustrating to rotate strains where i need like a week in between taking the same ones. We need a doctor to do some research about how the body processes kratom, and why its so physiologically different for everyone. In the meantime, please keep reviewing so that it benefits all!

[Kelleytoons]

Yes unless and until serious research is done we'll probably never really understand how kratom works, particularly since the effects differ so wildly between people.

I was dosing pretty high as well - 5-6 grams - and it had stopped working until I drastically lowered my dose. Now I seldom take more than 3 grams and 2.5 is usually the sweet spot. So it's worth exploring that approach, even aside from staggering. Just try it once (perhaps on a weekend when you are not working and thus not in "drastic" need) - just take a couple of grams and see. For me it was pretty dramatic how much better EVERYTHING then worked.

The temptation is always to increase but it's a losing game - the more you take, the less effects you feel because less really is more. So if a couple of grams isn't working the idea is not to take MORE but to try something different. So try a different color, a different batch, a different vendor. Or, yes, staggering - but, again, with smaller doses. Try a gram, then another gram 30 minutes later. That ought to do it but if not I'd then try two grams, and another gram 30 minutes later (not that same day, though).

We are all experimenters using our own bodies as the lab - it's frustrating but it's also fascinating when viewed in a certain way. And it's unlikely we'll see any sort of true research in this regard in my lifetime (perhaps in you younger folks, though).

[mountainmango]

Brian - I would definitely give staggering a shot. You may have to experiment a bit, but now that I’ve started figuring out what dose/split/timing works best for me, it really has helped me enjoy kratom a lot more again.

Kelleytoons (and other low 2-3 gram dosers), I’m curious if you ever feel the “warm and fuzzy” effects with such a low dose. Even with a 3 month tolerance break and the staggering method, I’ve never been able to get those effects back no matter what strain or dose. I can get the energy, euphoria, etc but the hardcore relaxation that makes your whole body and mind feel warm and fuzzy still eludes me. Even minor relaxation/“slow” effects don’t really happen for me anymore. It seems kratom only tends to give me energy or mood boost no matter the strain or amount but doesn’t really relax me. I’m wondering if sticking to the 2-3 gram dose range for awhile may help me get it back.

[brian b]

Thanks so much for both of your responses! I was startin to wonder if i was the only one that felt these weaning effects. We will be the ones to try and guide eachother until real research is complete. Nice to see the support here. Have a good one guys.

[Kelleytoons]

I’m curious if you ever feel the “warm and fuzzy” effects with such a low dose.

While always remembering that we are SUCH individuals here, let me say that *most* of what I get from kratom is a euphoric "great to be alive" feel. It's hard to categorize it completely because, well, this old body is in so much pain most of the time (and I am NOT complaining here - we all have our crosses to bear and this comes with the old age territory) that anything that distracts from that is such a good thing it's hard to tell if there is pain relief, or what going on.

But when a kratom dose "kicks in" I definitely get happy and I actually don't try and focus on what is going on too much lest the analysis screws with that. Now - the real question is: how much am I actually feeling from any particular kratom? And it does vary. But I know for an absolute fact this: when I started losing that feeling I increased the dose only to find it going further and further away. I was up to 6-8 grams per dose and not getting much out of it at all (even with breaks) and then some fellow forum member suggested a much lower dose.

I was very hesitant - I mean, how could lowering my dose POSSIBLY make the effects stronger? It's contrary to what ever we feel about ANYTHING we take (imagine this with, say, alcohol). But I got up one morning and, just for the heck of it, only took a couple of grams. And it was good - not great, but I definitely felt it. So I thought, hmmm, let's keep going, until I found that sweet spot for me is around 2.5-3 grams (it tends to be closer to 3 because my stash is predominantly reds. For the whites and greens it's definitely not more than 2.5 and sometimes closer to 2).

At that dose it nearly always works - that does not mean there aren't some batches that don't hit, or some that hit much stronger than others. That has always been the case and, I suspect, always will. And I have a HUGE rotation (around 150 different batches, from perhaps 20 vendors, although nowadays two vendors make up about 80% of all I take). And it doesn't mean I don't experiment with things like this topic, staggering (most of the time I don't because it takes a dedicated effort for this old man to remember to take more 30 minutes later <g>. When I DO remember to try staggering I get very good results nearly all of the time - last night was a good example. I slept almost eight hours without waking up, which for me is almost impossible - until I get my knee surgery even a slight movement during sleep wakes me due to the pain).

But as I said (wow - this has gotten long - sorry) we are all experimenters on our own body. Try and see what works for you. It's only when I hear someone saying they are taking a lot more than 3 grams per dose and NOT getting results that I recommend drastically cutting down. Because I've been there. It doesn't hurt to try a much lower dose and you never know.

[OriginalLHB]

I'm one of those people for whom staggering doses does not work. The day becomes a dull blur when I am trying to extend the effects of a single dose out into the six hour range.

I do, however, find that "less is more" especially when dosing frequently throughout the day. I have far better experiences with five doses of 2.75 grams spaced at 4 hour intervals than with two 6 gram doses per day, even if those larger doses consist of multiple strains administered in close proximity to one another.

This aligns with the way I took painkillers when I had health insurance. I maintained a strict every four hour dosing regimen, as opposed to taking my entire daily dose (and some of the next day's) in one or two big blasts.

[Shrek]

I've been taking gram doses about 4-6 times a day. I take it whenever I feel the effects starting to wear off throughout my work day. Maybe every couple hours or so.
It keeps me super productive and gives me something to look forward to lol. It's honestly been working so well for me. Probably not the best for my tolerance but oh well

[Distherbed]

I actually do the exact same thing. I've been doing it that way for the past 8-9- years without any tolerance issues. K seems to be unique to each individual's biology. One method works for some but not others. IMO, to get the maximum benefits of the leaf, you must invest the time and energy required to establish the dosing pattern/frequency that works best for you. Otherwise, it's a crapshoot!

[Loveandpeace]

I actually do the exact same thing. I've been doing it that way for the past 8-9- years without any tolerance issues. K seems to be unique to each individual's biology. One method works for some but not others. IMO, to get the maximum benefits of the leaf, you must invest the time and energy required to establish the dosing pattern/frequency that works best for you. Otherwise, it's a crapshoot!

Yup!! I took detailed notes my first year and may have to start again. Tolerance jumped after I fucked around with extract a few months ago and it sucks. I'm at 15gpd. The first 2 years, I was sailing by at 3gpd.

Discipline is absolutely key. Note taking, introspection, strategy and trust. However, it is funny about the trust. Most people aim high with other chemicals and trust it will get them there but not too far. With kratom, I aim low and get the better results. It is a different kind of trust.

[brian b]

I'd also like to add that i believe my painkiller use in the past, due to a bad back and working in a kitchen, has made my body somewhat more 'immune' somewhat to kratom. So, i finally got laser surgery to fix the sciatica i was suffering from, but that was years after being prescribed Vicodin by my doctor at the time. In the early 2000s, they were damn near givin it away for anything deemed painful. Now, although not suffering from any physical pain, i do enjoy kratom for its wide array of effects, but its potent novelty has worn off quickly, as i have a great immune system, am rarely sick, but wish my fast metabolism wouldnt 'rush' the kratom through my system, only giving me about 45 min of any effects☹. On the other hand, my wife continues to enjoy multiple strains a day, easily taking double of what i take. And although she's built up a tolerance, its nothin like mine. I think i should just quit for like a week and try and start low again. I only dose twice a day, at 4.5 g each. So its not a ton. I guess i'm thankful for a good immune system and fast metabolism, but damn. Not ready to forget about kratom, especially when now more people are consuming it and talking about it in a helpful manner; now we need some clinical studies! Just think where we'd be if no studies were ever done on cannabis? Fn lost. I'm an avid gardener as well, so lets go w some science to back up some facts on the subject.

[IndelibleDotInk]

tldr -

but 'pro tip' should be a sidebar in a kratom instruction book

[brian b]

Too long? Its a freakin forum where people write words and others read them. You must be zingin off your first dose or somethin...

[add to descartes]

I didn't read everyone's responses, but I learned to do this years ago, and I swear by it. It seems to work best when you take one-half to two-thirds your dose, wait 15 minutes (no need to wait longer) and take the smaller portion. I've also divided it 3 and staggered it, for example if you're taking 6 grams, you'd do 3g, wait 15min, take 2g, wait 15 more, and then 1g. Or some such combination. For me, taking a whole dose at once doesn't work well, it feels like I'm wasting some, so I don't know how well it absorbs if taken as one lump sum.

tldr -

but 'pro tip' should be a sidebar in a kratom instruction book

Yeah, people don't like scrolling down to see if their question has already been answered recently. r/kratom has that problem bad, for them it's the same group of newbie questions day in and day out. ("Just got sum kratom from the gas station what does it do lol")

[Babel-17]

I ascribe to the notion that the/my body tends towards a state of homeostasis, and it can be advantageous to allow for that when ingesting bioactive substances. I never tire of thinking of Christopher Walken's performance in Abel Ferrara's The Addiction, and how he advises, "You learn, like the Tibetans, to survive on a little.".

Very cool film, like in Near Dark "the V word" is never uttered. Free to watch on YouTube, as is the clip of Walken playing his role.

But anyway, another analogy is to think of dosing like combat, with your body the battlefield. You might prefer the results you'll get by applying a sniper rifle, delivering precise shots, versus using a shotgun on it, even if like the assassin in Kill Bill said, "I'm a f***ing surgeon with this shotgun".

[Kelleytoons]

While it's not STRICTLY on topic, let me add that it's sometimes VERY useful to try a MUCH smaller dose than you usually do and then NOT follow it up if you don't need to.

I never had that experience better than this morning - I'm tapering off (for my operation) and down to only one dose a day but I woke up to do my weight lifting (need to get this old body in as much shape as I can beforehand) and was in HUGE pain and thought... maybe just a TEENY bit and only took two capsules of some TFH white (so less than a gram, perhaps around .8 as my capsules are pretty standard at .5 total with .1 being the capsule weight). I wasn't even going to do another dose in 30 minutes and... wow. This was one of the strongest hits I've had in many, many months (my usual dose is between 2.5 and 3 grams).

Now it's possible because I've cut my usage down from around 7.5-9 grams to 2.5-3 grams per day that my body is just dealing well with much smaller amounts, but it also shows me that from time to time even very small amounts of kratom can be VERY effective (I well remember people on this forum telling me their typical dose was 1 gram or less and I'd say "sure, I wouldn't even FEEL that".

Always worth experimenting.

(Also - love "Near Dark". I'm not a big vampire fan, but that's a great film).

[e_poison]

I stagger in 45 minute intervals since I think the pain relieving effects peak at this time. I find that works best for me and keeps the pain relief at maximum duration.

Always “front load” with half then I do a wind down stagger in 45 min intervals.

For example, if I’m taking 5g, I’ll do 2.5, 1.5, 1.

I’ve been staggering for years and have experimented with many different formulas. Super long staggers or too many staggers have diminishing returns that make it not really worth it, but a 3 part stagger works nice imo.

[Kelleytoons]

Maybe I'll try that after my surgery this week.