Double M Herbals | Kratom Forum

Posted: **Sun Dec 20, 2020 9:12 pm**

I just did a vendor survey of Kratom lab test results (50 COA's) and the levels of 7ohm were basically the same: below .05. regardless of strain, color, or method of drying. Also, there was no rhyme or reason to which strains were more potent, i.e strains testing high in MG did not have a pronounced opioid effect. The only difference that I could find was that the levels of Mitragynine were considerably lower in the reds: more than a 50% reduction.

Recent research has shown:
1) Mitragyjne metabolizes into 7ohm inside the body
2) The quantity found in the brain was much higher than what could be found in the leaf.
3) The small amounts of 7ohm, as well as the other opioid agonists found in the leaf were estimated to be 5-10X too small to be responsible for the opioid effect in this study.

What does this mean?
1) Red, or highly oxidized strains, might not have more opioid effect than any other type of kratom. Placebo?
2) The reason for this effect appears to be 7ohm from what is metabolized in the liver.
3) It is unclear what exactly is responsible for the stronger opioid effect in Kratom.

Up until now it has been widely believed that "reds", or heavily oxidized leaf had more 7ohm (converted through photooxidation). However, the levels found in all Kratom (or a representative sampling) seem to be roughly the same. Although it seems like these have greater effect, it could just be a Placebo as there is no scientific explanation. Furthermore, high concentrations of Mitragynine don't necessarily mean a greater effect of any kind. This could mean that there is something else that facilitates or inhibits the conversion process in the body.

Whatever the case, the drying process does change the alkaloid profile of leaf, but does not appear to make it any stronger or opioid like. The only advantage I could see in reds now is that you are able to take considerably more than a green, like twice as much before wobbles set in. For me, it's virtually impossible to get wobbles from reds. Since you are able to double the dose, it stands to reason that you are doubling your intake of 7ohm. However, this amount may still pale in comparison to the amount converted by the liver. We can now throw everything that we know about Kratom processing out the window, and start from square one.

Posted: **Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:22 am**

Though not fully studied, mitragynine pseudoindoxyl, is theorized at weighing in on this as well. Research shows that the body metabolizes into it, similar to 7ohm, however it is more potent https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acsptsci.0c00075. There's not many studies to show how the oxidation affects the mitragynine pseudoindoxyl during the drying process, or no studies showing if drying method serves as sort of primer for more effective transition of mitrgynine into either of the two (perhaps allowing faster absorption of either).

The other thing I think needs to be studied is prioritization within the body. I.E. which alkaloid is metabolized first... If the body prioritizes the break down of the mitragynine first, perhaps in passes the 7ohm and mitragynine pseudoindoxyl before allowing them to enter the blood stream and transition to more potent alkaloids (in the case of 7ohm). Just as the body breaks down carbs first, proteins second and then fats, it's possible to see something similar here. I.E. if one eats more and more carbs, the body will pass more protein and fats in comparison.

Short, there's not enough research into mitragynine pseudoindoxy to determine if the drying has impacts on it, and even less studies on how the body converts and how much. In addition, there are limited studies on the prioritization of metabolizing in the body. Perhaps this is could be the reason for the effects, perhaps not.

I don't agree we should throw what we've learned out, I would just believe there's a lot going on behind the curtains that hasn't fully been studied. There's still a lot of great things that have been learned, and plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest a multitude of different theories.

Posted: **Mon Dec 21, 2020 12:29 pm**

Would like to hear gumbyke's thoughts on this topic.

It wouldnt be easy to throw out everything we 'know' about kratom. Just think about how ingrained it is in most people and vendors. Not just the connoisseurs, but the headshop crowd and weekend warriors. It's like the first thing most people learn when first starting, and most people don't like to accept it when someone says "everything you thought you learned is wrong" and their world gets turned upside down. It would take a major paradigm shift, and major cooperation between vendors...they'd would all have to agree on it or nothing, it would cause a ton of confusion otherwise. As for the AKA and other major players, I think that they would think it would hurt business. People like all the cool colors and exotic strain names, it definitely propels sales in the majority of folks. That said, if the science backs it up I would support it, but I'm not sure if we're there yet. A lot of research would need to be done, as well as a major campaign to changes people's minds, if that's even possible at this point.

Posted: **Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:59 pm**

Very insightful 7ohm I think this is a great post and honestly from my own personal experience after 6 years of using I find to make alot of sense

Posted: **Tue Dec 22, 2020 8:35 pm**

High mitragynine content = more opioid like, at least for me. Especially when used with quercetin to induce the enzymes responsible for the conversion of mitragynine to 7-hydroxymitragynine. Capsaicin works good too but can be uncomfortable lol.

Posted: **Wed Dec 23, 2020 12:14 pm**

Playerpiano72 wrote:Would like to hear gumbyke's thoughts on this topic.

It wouldnt be easy to throw out everything we 'know' about kratom. Just think about how ingrained it is in most people and vendors. Not just the connoisseurs, but the headshop crowd and weekend warriors. It's like the first thing most people learn when first starting, and most people don't like to accept it when someone says "everything you thought you learned is wrong" and their world gets turned upside down. It would take a major paradigm shift, and major cooperation between vendors...they'd would all have to agree on it or nothing, it would cause a ton of confusion otherwise. As for the AKA and other major players, I think that they would think it would hurt business. People like all the cool colors and exotic strain names, it definitely propels sales in the majority of folks. That said, if the science backs it up I would support it, but I'm not sure if we're there yet. A lot of research would need to be done, as well as a major campaign to changes people's minds, if that's even possible at this point.

You're right. People are resistant to what is now intuitive to them, validated by placebo effect. I'm just presenting evidence for the case. I personally find it hard to swallow too. Maybe there's something inherently flawed with the way it's tested? The entire Kratom community has believed in oxidation for years.

Posted: **Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:04 pm**

mitragy9 wrote:High mitragynine content = more opioid like, at least for me. Especially when used with quercetin to induce the enzymes responsible for the conversion of mitragynine to 7-hydroxymitragynine. Capsaicin works good too but can be uncomfortable lol.

That makes sense to me. But, people who've tried the higher Mitragynine stuff (I've seen as high as 2.1) have reported that there were no noticeable differences (negative or positive). Furthermore, "strains" that have been popular and are almost universally considered "good" batch after batch consistently show moderate levels of MG, averaging around 1.6. I have strains that have been consistently the best I've sampled and they tested different every time and rarely over 1.8. I've polled 2 large vendors who test every strain they have consistently and publish the results and the same findings there. I think that you'd find that a vendor's most popular strains are not the highest in MG or 7ohm.

Posted: **Wed Dec 23, 2020 8:33 pm**

7ohm wrote:
mitragy9 wrote:High mitragynine content = more opioid like, at least for me. Especially when used with quercetin to induce the enzymes responsible for the conversion of mitragynine to 7-hydroxymitragynine. Capsaicin works good too but can be uncomfortable lol.
That makes sense to me. But, people who've tried the higher Mitragynine stuff (I've seen as high as 2.1) have reported that there were no noticeable differences (negative or positive). Furthermore, "strains" that have been popular and are almost universally considered "good" batch after batch consistently show moderate levels of MG, averaging around 1.6. I have strains that have been consistently the best I've sampled and they tested different every time and rarely over 1.8. I've polled 2 large vendors who test every strain they have consistently and publish the results and the same findings there. I think that you'd find that a vendor's most popular strains are not the highest in MG or 7ohm.

I think you're onto something with that and you're not the only vendor who's been saying that, another vendor had been keeping their own records of lab test and said that their most moodlifting batches were more like 1.0-1.6 however it is it's different from person to person, so there's that?

Posted: **Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:21 pm**

I got a bag of super green from benni that has 2.2 mit. It does little by itself. But is a good mixer with lower mit strains. I got 9 different strains from him and my favorites are 1.4-1.6. I know everyones different.

Posted: **Thu Dec 24, 2020 1:20 am**

Its like the black md its puzzling to me because many people were saying how great it was for pain relief but I got nothing from it alone and its the nastiest tasting kratom I ve tried so far.But when I mixed with any color well not any but red or green I could feel the pain relief it was the strangest thing to me that it didn't do anything alone at first I thought it was just my mind playing tricks but time an again nothing alone but mixed its got magic.I still hate the taste of it tho.It would have to be the combination of the different alkaloids right?Why many others feel it alone Well then it dosent make sense.It is a dark red I think or its burnt leaf which it tastes like yuck.Another example is when I first started it was always reds for me for pain,but as I branched out I found many greens yellows and golds worked just as well for my pain,it took me quite awhile to try whites alone but there's a few white s that work well to.I couldn't believe lizas happy go lucky had white in it and thats when I tried whites alone and truthfully theres only maybe 2 whites that make me mean with a capital M and all that does is go against everything I've tried to learn.

Posted: **Thu Dec 24, 2020 6:41 am**

7ohm wrote: That makes sense to me. But, people who've tried the higher Mitragynine stuff (I've seen as high as 2.1) have reported that there were no noticeable differences (negative or positive). Furthermore, "strains" that have been popular and are almost universally considered "good" batch after batch consistently show moderate levels of MG, averaging around 1.6. I have strains that have been consistently the best I've sampled and they tested different every time and rarely over 1.8. I've polled 2 large vendors who test every strain they have consistently and publish the results and the same findings there. I think that you'd find that a vendor's most popular strains are not the highest in MG or 7ohm.

fascinating!

Posted: **Thu Dec 24, 2020 7:27 am**

If less is more, like many people say, it would follow that a higher % of mitra/7ohm doesn't necessarily mean better effects.

Posted: **Thu Dec 24, 2020 8:44 am**

Jaredsurf wrote:I got a bag of super green from benni that has 2.2 mit. It does little by itself. But is a good mixer with lower mit strains. I got 9 different strains from him and my favorites are 1.4-1.6. I know everyones different.

Yeah, it was Benni's Superwhite Kali that I had that was advertised as 2 percent that did very little for me as well, maybe I do need to try it as a base for blends? Good idea!

Posted: **Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:44 pm**

mitragy9 wrote:High mitragynine content = more opioid like, at least for me. Especially when used with quercetin to induce the enzymes responsible for the conversion of mitragynine to 7-hydroxymitragynine. Capsaicin works good too but can be uncomfortable lol.

Fantastic observation with the Quercetin. I’ve noticed I get more mileage and better results from my kratom since I began taking Quercetin. It’s one of the components that my nutritionalist friend had recommended as part of a Covid prophylaxis protocol to greatly boost the immune system.

Posted: **Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:59 pm**

mitragy9 wrote:High mitragynine content = more opioid like, at least for me. Especially when used with quercetin to induce the enzymes responsible for the conversion of mitragynine to 7-hydroxymitragynine. Capsaicin works good too but can be uncomfortable lol.

Quercetin is acually a strong inhibitor of said enzyme. Capsacin is bueno. St John's Wort appears to be a strong inducer.

To see why I disagree with the theory that high MG=strong opioid effect, let's take a look at the case of alkaloid extract, which inarguably has a high level of mitragynine (40-60%).

I think that we would all agree that the effects from pure alkaloid extract are not exactly "Opioid" like. When I imagine what the effects of Mitragynine are like, I think of it as being exactly like extract. It keeps me up and gives me wobbles but lacks what I presume is 7ohm: opioid effect. It seems like this only happens when there's excess Mitragynine, which happens to also inhibit CYP3A4, which then limits the conversion of Mitragynine into 7ohm.

Could it be that too much MG creates a shortage of this enzyme by inhibiting it's production?
Maybe this is why we sometimes get little opioid effect with the wobbles and are unable to sleep: flood of mitragynine.
Maybe there's an ideal level of MG that maximizes this conversion.
Maybe, this lower level of MG in reds, is why it has been perceived to be more opioid in effect.

Below is a list of inducers and inhibiors. It is interesting to note that what has been known as common "potentiators" of kratom actually inhibit this enzyme. The theory was that by reducing the amount of this enzyme, you essentially slowed down the rate at which your liver metabolizes drugs, leaving more in your system to be enjoyed. This is why drugs will often warn not to take with Grapefruit. We now know why we would possibly prefer more to less.

If what we are theorizing is correct, one could potentially see a difference in effect by alternating doses with an inducer and then with an inhibitor. It could be surmised that effects after inhibiting are predominantly Mitragynine, and inducing are 7ohm. One would be fast and the other slow.

CYP3A4 is induced by the following:

St. John’s wort [14, 15, 16]
Capsaicin [17, 18]
Common valerian [19]
Echinacea purpurea [20]
Vitamin D and UV exposure [6]
Being female [21]
Diabetes [22]
Fatty acids [22]
Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) found in cigarettes [23]
Aflatoxin B1 [24]
Some drugs such as carbamazepine [10] and dexamethasone [25]

Factors That Decrease CYP3A4

Food Components
Grapefruit juice (and its compounds bergamottin, naringenin, and paradicin-A) [26, 4, 27]
Starfruit juice [28]
Aloe vera juice [29]
Mixed vegetable juices [30]
Kale [31]
Garden cress [32, 33]
Fennel [34]
Green tea [4, 35]
Black pepper [36, 37]

HERBS
Goldenseal [38]
Raspberry leaf [34]
Milk thistle (compounds silybin and isosilybin) [39]

Posted: **Thu Jan 21, 2021 2:40 am**

7ohm wrote:
mitragy9 wrote:High mitragynine content = more opioid like, at least for me. Especially when used with quercetin to induce the enzymes responsible for the conversion of mitragynine to 7-hydroxymitragynine. Capsaicin works good too but can be uncomfortable lol.
Quercetin is acually a strong inhibitor of said enzyme. Capsacin is bueno. St John's Wort appears to be a strong inducer.

To see why I disagree with the theory that high MG=strong opioid effect, let's take a look at the case of alkaloid extract, which inarguably has a high level of mitragynine (40-60%).

I think that we would all agree that the effects from pure alkaloid extract are not exactly "Opioid" like. When I imagine what the effects of Mitragynine are like, I think of it as being exactly like extract. It keeps me up and gives me wobbles but lacks what I presume is 7ohm: opioid effect. It seems like this only happens when there's excess Mitragynine, which happens to also inhibit CYP3A4, which then limits the conversion of Mitragynine into 7ohm.

Could it be that too much MG creates a shortage of this enzyme by inhibiting it's production?
Maybe this is why we sometimes get little opioid effect with the wobbles and are unable to sleep: flood of mitragynine.
Maybe there's an ideal level of MG that maximizes this conversion.
Maybe, this lower level of MG in reds, is why it has been perceived to be more opioid in effect.

Below is a list of inducers and inhibiors. It is interesting to note that what has been known as common "potentiators" of kratom actually inhibit this enzyme. The theory was that by reducing the amount of this enzyme, you essentially slowed down the rate at which your liver metabolizes drugs, leaving more in your system to be enjoyed. This is why drugs will often warn not to take with Grapefruit. We now know why we would possibly prefer more to less.

If what we are theorizing is correct, one could potentially see a difference in effect by alternating doses with an inducer and then with an inhibitor. It could be surmised that effects after inhibiting are predominantly Mitragynine, and inducing are 7ohm. One would be fast and the other slow.

CYP3A4 is induced by the following:

St. John’s wort [14, 15, 16]
Capsaicin [17, 18]
Common valerian [19]
Echinacea purpurea [20]
Vitamin D and UV exposure [6]
Being female [21]
Diabetes [22]
Fatty acids [22]
Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) found in cigarettes [23]
Aflatoxin B1 [24]
Some drugs such as carbamazepine [10] and dexamethasone [25]

Factors That Decrease CYP3A4

Food Components
Grapefruit juice (and its compounds bergamottin, naringenin, and paradicin-A) [26, 4, 27]
Starfruit juice [28]
Aloe vera juice [29]
Mixed vegetable juices [30]
Kale [31]
Garden cress [32, 33]
Fennel [34]
Green tea [4, 35]
Black pepper [36, 37]

HERBS
Goldenseal [38]
Raspberry leaf [34]
Milk thistle (compounds silybin and isosilybin) [39]

Great information & discussion. There’s a lot I need to learn & try still. Anyone have a recommendation on mixing specific strains they’ve tried to get that effect? Thanks & enjoy.

Posted: **Thu Jan 21, 2021 5:28 pm**

I've been consistently disappointed in reds for years now. In fact, reds have proven the least euphoric for me, generally speaking!

Posted: **Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:58 am**

7ohm wrote:
mitragy9 wrote:High mitragynine content = more opioid like, at least for me. Especially when used with quercetin to induce the enzymes responsible for the conversion of mitragynine to 7-hydroxymitragynine. Capsaicin works good too but can be uncomfortable lol.
Quercetin is acually a strong inhibitor of said enzyme. Capsacin is bueno. St John's Wort appears to be a strong inducer.

To see why I disagree with the theory that high MG=strong opioid effect, let's take a look at the case of alkaloid extract, which inarguably has a high level of mitragynine (40-60%).

I think that we would all agree that the effects from pure alkaloid extract are not exactly "Opioid" like. When I imagine what the effects of Mitragynine are like, I think of it as being exactly like extract. It keeps me up and gives me wobbles but lacks what I presume is 7ohm: opioid effect. It seems like this only happens when there's excess Mitragynine, which happens to also inhibit CYP3A4, which then limits the conversion of Mitragynine into 7ohm.

Could it be that too much MG creates a shortage of this enzyme by inhibiting it's production?
Maybe this is why we sometimes get little opioid effect with the wobbles and are unable to sleep: flood of mitragynine.
Maybe there's an ideal level of MG that maximizes this conversion.
Maybe, this lower level of MG in reds, is why it has been perceived to be more opioid in effect.

Below is a list of inducers and inhibiors. It is interesting to note that what has been known as common "potentiators" of kratom actually inhibit this enzyme. The theory was that by reducing the amount of this enzyme, you essentially slowed down the rate at which your liver metabolizes drugs, leaving more in your system to be enjoyed. This is why drugs will often warn not to take with Grapefruit. We now know why we would possibly prefer more to less.

If what we are theorizing is correct, one could potentially see a difference in effect by alternating doses with an inducer and then with an inhibitor. It could be surmised that effects after inhibiting are predominantly Mitragynine, and inducing are 7ohm. One would be fast and the other slow.

CYP3A4 is induced by the following:

St. John’s wort [14, 15, 16]
Capsaicin [17, 18]
Common valerian [19]
Echinacea purpurea [20]
Vitamin D and UV exposure [6]
Being female [21]
Diabetes [22]
Fatty acids [22]
Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) found in cigarettes [23]
Aflatoxin B1 [24]
Some drugs such as carbamazepine [10] and dexamethasone [25]

Factors That Decrease CYP3A4

Food Components
Grapefruit juice (and its compounds bergamottin, naringenin, and paradicin-A) [26, 4, 27]
Starfruit juice [28]
Aloe vera juice [29]
Mixed vegetable juices [30]
Kale [31]
Garden cress [32, 33]
Fennel [34]
Green tea [4, 35]
Black pepper [36, 37]

HERBS
Goldenseal [38]
Raspberry leaf [34]
Milk thistle (compounds silybin and isosilybin) [39]

@7OHM Very interesting. This took me down several good reads. Makes total sense in my experience.

So, in your opinion, how much or how often would one take something like St John's Wort to potentially increase 7ohm? Can't seem to find anything on that or maybe I'm just not digging hard enough. Also, timing between the two? Take together? Separately and farther apart?

Posted: **Tue Feb 01, 2022 11:58 pm**

Vipercuda69 wrote: ↑Wed Dec 30, 2020 1:44 pm
mitragy9 wrote:High mitragynine content = more opioid like, at least for me. Especially when used with quercetin to induce the enzymes responsible for the conversion of mitragynine to 7-hydroxymitragynine. Capsaicin works good too but can be uncomfortable lol.
Fantastic observation with the quercetin. I’ve noticed I get more mileage and better results from my kratom since I began taking Quercetin. It’s one of the components that my nutritionalist friend had recommended as part of a Covid prophylaxis protocol to greatly boost the immune system.

Interesting... I've heard similar things with NAC (N-acetylcysteine)—some people find that it reduces kratom's effects, others say that it improves kratom's effects for them. From anecdotal evidence, it seems that people who find NAC enhancing also tend to prefer the effects of the stimulating kratom alkaloids and don't particularly like 7-OH (in other words, they prefer kratom which is more similar to the natural kratom leaf in its alkaloid profile). Then again, this could be determined by the interaction of numerous complex factors (such as genetics, diet, medications, mental health disorders, other supplements, etc).

Too much quercetin can cause harmful oxidation, but both vitamin C and NAC can keep quercetin in check. Some sources say that quercetin should always be co-administered with vitamin C and NAC). Too much NAC can prevent cellular apoptosis (and thus contribute to tumor growth), but I have read that vitamin C can keep NAC from having this negative effect.

NAC tends to be much more popular with people quitting kratom, but a small number of them insist that it improves kratom for them. My personal experience is that NAC makes me want to take kratom less, but if I do take it, it is better for me. I prefer natural kratom leaves or alkaloid profiles that are as close as I can get to it, which are devoid of 7-OH. I cannot tolerate "red" strains. I also have ADHD though and get sleepy when I first take Adderall, caffeine, or other stimulants before I move around and manage to feel focused and calm (also too much caffeine/Adderall has a negative effect and is thus self-limiting—I also cannot take too much kratom or I feel tired, unmotivated and nauseous).

I really wish we had more research on the interactions between supplements, but unfortunately, clinical research grants prioritize industry interest, so you hardly ever find studies of even something like taking Claritin and Benadryl together (why would a pharmaceutical fund a study that includes its competitor and may reveal its competitor to be better and/or beneficial?)

P.S. This whole thread is fascinating; I have been going down rabbit holes on this forum all day!

Posted: **Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:51 am**

I used to think it was Reds but now I believe it's Greens because they have the highest levels of mitragynine which gets converted into 7-hydroxymitragynine, and then into mitragynine pseudoindoxyl. I mean Reds still do have an effect but it's somewhat different and I think it's more geared towards pain relief and sedation. The alkaloid profile has been altered due to how it's processed vs Greens and Whites which are almost identical. But green Kratom is more closer to how it would be if you plucked it right off of the tree. If you want the true Kratom experience, use Green veins.

Posted: **Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:54 pm**

humbles2390 wrote: ↑Sat Jan 23, 2021 11:58 am
7ohm wrote:
mitragy9 wrote:High mitragynine content = more opioid like, at least for me. Especially when used with quercetin to induce the enzymes responsible for the conversion of mitragynine to 7-hydroxymitragynine. Capsaicin works good too but can be uncomfortable lol.
Quercetin is acually a strong inhibitor of said enzyme. Capsacin is bueno. St John's Wort appears to be a strong inducer.

To see why I disagree with the theory that high MG=strong opioid effect, let's take a look at the case of alkaloid extract, which inarguably has a high level of mitragynine (40-60%).

I think that we would all agree that the effects from pure alkaloid extract are not exactly "Opioid" like. When I imagine what the effects of Mitragynine are like, I think of it as being exactly like extract. It keeps me up and gives me wobbles but lacks what I presume is 7ohm: opioid effect. It seems like this only happens when there's excess Mitragynine, which happens to also inhibit CYP3A4, which then limits the conversion of Mitragynine into 7ohm.

Could it be that too much MG creates a shortage of this enzyme by inhibiting it's production?
Maybe this is why we sometimes get little opioid effect with the wobbles and are unable to sleep: flood of mitragynine.
Maybe there's an ideal level of MG that maximizes this conversion.
Maybe, this lower level of MG in reds, is why it has been perceived to be more opioid in effect.

Below is a list of inducers and inhibiors. It is interesting to note that what has been known as common "potentiators" of kratom actually inhibit this enzyme. The theory was that by reducing the amount of this enzyme, you essentially slowed down the rate at which your liver metabolizes drugs, leaving more in your system to be enjoyed. This is why drugs will often warn not to take with Grapefruit. We now know why we would possibly prefer more to less.

If what we are theorizing is correct, one could potentially see a difference in effect by alternating doses with an inducer and then with an inhibitor. It could be surmised that effects after inhibiting are predominantly Mitragynine, and inducing are 7ohm. One would be fast and the other slow.

CYP3A4 is induced by the following:

St. John’s wort [14, 15, 16]
Capsaicin [17, 18]
Common valerian [19]
Echinacea purpurea [20]
Vitamin D and UV exposure [6]
Being female [21]
Diabetes [22]
Fatty acids [22]
Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) found in cigarettes [23]
Aflatoxin B1 [24]
Some drugs such as carbamazepine [10] and dexamethasone [25]

Factors That Decrease CYP3A4

Food Components
Grapefruit juice (and its compounds bergamottin, naringenin, and paradicin-A) [26, 4, 27]
Starfruit juice [28]
Aloe vera juice [29]
Mixed vegetable juices [30]
Kale [31]
Garden cress [32, 33]
Fennel [34]
Green tea [4, 35]
Black pepper [36, 37]

HERBS
Goldenseal [38]
Raspberry leaf [34]
Milk thistle (compounds silybin and isosilybin) [39]
@7OHM Very interesting. This took me down several good reads. Makes total sense in my experience.

So, in your opinion, how much or how often would one take something like St John's Wort to potentially increase 7ohm? Can't seem to find anything on that or maybe I'm just not digging hard enough. Also, timing between the two? Take together? Separately and farther apart?

I used to take one capsule when I would take my dose of kratom

Posted: **Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:02 am**

THANK YOU FOR THIS INFO, I've been searching for something like this - infact I JUST posted a question about this topic yesterday!

My experience is kratom feels more like really mild MDMA - now ofc I don't like to categorize our precious leaf, bc it's very unique. Everyone's chemical makeup is different also. I hate itcwhen I buy "the hottest/potent batch w/long legs", and it's all the rave on here & reddit...so when I get my hands on it, I get sick, the wobbles - nothing opioid or MDMA-like...it's the wobbles. So now, I know 7 ohm is the feel-good melty comfy happy vibe we get from kratom. I've never gotten a great feeling from red, even though I heard differently. I try all colors.

What is considered a high amount of mitragynine vs low(not extract or whatever - i mean powdered leaf or raw leaf)?

What are the effects of natural leaf?

Btw for anyone reafing this thread, colors don't really matter. Strains are for marketing. It's all about the BATCH, but that's another topic)

Posted: **Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:03 am**

Also, are you saying grapefruit DOES NOT enhance kratom? This whole time I was under the assumption it was a kratom potentiator.

Posted: **Thu Feb 17, 2022 1:33 am**

Its so strange. I've tried reds that have been "fast" feeling and whites that have completely chilled me out. I will say that Malay in general is more sedating for me than other strains. But even then, the feel of the Malays can change from vendor to vendor and even with the same vendor from batch to batch. So many variables...

Posted: **Thu Feb 17, 2022 9:51 am**

Malay is Just a name. Not more. Has absolutley nothing to do with any effect or even quality of a batch/Strain.

Posted: **Thu Feb 17, 2022 11:10 am**

I still don’t get it I mean some days I take kratom even with a tolerance of a certain strain, or batch that just seem to give me a somewhat opiate feeling. Then other days I take it, and just don’t get those effects I would say it’s more about who you get it from. I don’t think their is really a strongest strain of kratom it’s better to just find the batches, and vendor that work for you,

Posted: **Thu Feb 17, 2022 12:55 pm**

7ohm wrote: ↑Sun Jan 03, 2021 11:59 pm
mitragy9 wrote:High mitragynine content = more opioid like, at least for me. Especially when used with quercetin to induce the enzymes responsible for the conversion of mitragynine to 7-hydroxymitragynine. Capsaicin works good too but can be uncomfortable lol.
Quercetin is acually a strong inhibitor of said enzyme. Capsacin is bueno. St John's Wort appears to be a strong inducer.

To see why I disagree with the theory that high MG=strong opioid effect, let's take a look at the case of alkaloid extract, which inarguably has a high level of mitragynine (40-60%).

I think that we would all agree that the effects from pure alkaloid extract are not exactly "Opioid" like. When I imagine what the effects of Mitragynine are like, I think of it as being exactly like extract. It keeps me up and gives me wobbles but lacks what I presume is 7ohm: opioid effect. It seems like this only happens when there's excess Mitragynine, which happens to also inhibit CYP3A4, which then limits the conversion of Mitragynine into 7ohm.

Could it be that too much MG creates a shortage of this enzyme by inhibiting it's production?
Maybe this is why we sometimes get little opioid effect with the wobbles and are unable to sleep: flood of mitragynine.
Maybe there's an ideal level of MG that maximizes this conversion.
Maybe, this lower level of MG in reds, is why it has been perceived to be more opioid in effect.

Below is a list of inducers and inhibiors. It is interesting to note that what has been known as common "potentiators" of kratom actually inhibit this enzyme. The theory was that by reducing the amount of this enzyme, you essentially slowed down the rate at which your liver metabolizes drugs, leaving more in your system to be enjoyed. This is why drugs will often warn not to take with Grapefruit. We now know why we would possibly prefer more to less.

If what we are theorizing is correct, one could potentially see a difference in effect by alternating doses with an inducer and then with an inhibitor. It could be surmised that effects after inhibiting are predominantly Mitragynine, and inducing are 7ohm. One would be fast and the other slow.

CYP3A4 is induced by the following:

St. John’s wort [14, 15, 16]
Capsaicin [17, 18]
Common valerian [19]
Echinacea purpurea [20]
Vitamin D and UV exposure [6]
Being female [21]
Diabetes [22]
Fatty acids [22]
Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAH) found in cigarettes [23]
Aflatoxin B1 [24]
Some drugs such as carbamazepine [10] and dexamethasone [25]

Factors That Decrease CYP3A4

Food Components
Grapefruit juice (and its compounds bergamottin, naringenin, and paradicin-A) [26, 4, 27]
Starfruit juice [28]
Aloe vera juice [29]
Mixed vegetable juices [30]
Kale [31]
Garden cress [32, 33]
Fennel [34]
Green tea [4, 35]
Black pepper [36, 37]

HERBS
Goldenseal [38]
Raspberry leaf [34]
Milk thistle (compounds silybin and isosilybin) [39]

Wondering also, does this mean V8 juice, green tea, aloe vera juice and black pepper would lower the effectiveness of kratom as far as what I'm taking it for, pain relief, energy and mood/ mental outlook improvement? I've heard others refer to these as potentiators.

Posted: **Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:01 pm**

I like the first answer here by" 7OHM ". they really hit the nail on the head. I'm sure others mentioned the same thing, just skiming through real fast. that came to my attention as well about the fact reds have more "opiode" affect might not be correct. a solid indoor dried green seems to lead the way in terms of effectiveness. that's just me though. a while ago is was said that red maeng da was the best kratom but for me green is the best soured from threes that are at least a decent age (5 years) . and I guess dry season kratom is the best I heard due to slower growth with saturated alkaloids.

Posted: **Sun Jun 05, 2022 1:33 pm**

Grapefruit juice inhibits the metabolism of opiates, raising its serum levels. To our knowledge, this is the first reported case in which the interaction between grapefruit juice and opiates was significant enough to cause an opioid toxidrome. It is, therefore, recommended that opioid treatment programs (OTPs) advise patients about this interaction before administering.

In my experience Cimetidine (tagamet), Grapefruit juice, and Black seed oil make my kratom much stronger right away and last longer.

Posted: **Sun Jun 05, 2022 7:37 pm**

Ok, I've been experimenting with raw honey this week and I believe it makes the kratom a little bit better. I could be another victim of the placebo effect, but I feel like a dose of.kratom and twelve ounces of coffee an hour after taking a spoon full of.honey is pretty much exactly what I'm looking for.

Posted: **Sun Jun 05, 2022 8:25 pm**

The honey thing makes sense scientifically, and is actually more straightforward to understand than other "potentiators."

"Raw honey possesses nootropic effects, such as memory-enhancing effects, as well as neuropharmacological activities, such as anxiolytic, antinociceptive, anticonvulsant, and antidepressant activities. Research suggests that the polyphenol constituents of honey can quench biological reactive oxygen species and counter oxidative stress while restoring the cellular antioxidant defense system." (source)

While I wouldn't say that honey potentiates kratom's alkaloids, it is a quality supply of quick carbs, which helps reduce cortisol and increase serotonin and dopamine without a high insulin crash (especially since you have coffee, which helps lower blood sugar). Furthermore, if you've ever felt like a batch of kratom has made you feel sleepy or ill without taking too much, chances are it's from oxidative stress. Kratom has heavy metals which our body naturally removes, but a buildup of them can cause oxidative stress and reduce the feeling of the positive effects of kratom.

In other words, raw honey itself possesses some of the positive effects of kratom (although less noticeable) and can compound the overall favorable effect. Furthermore, too much caffeine can cause adrenal fatigue or high cortisol, two things that can make kratom less effective, and two things that raw honey helps combat.

Bruce Lee regularly drank his black tea or black coffee with honey; it is actually better for workouts and energy than black coffee or caffeine alone for endorphins and workouts.

Everybody is different though, and one's average baseline of cortisol, oxidative stress, and adrenal fatigue probably play a role in how honey helps. I'd say anyone drinking caffeine around the time they take kratom should probably try to fit raw honey somewhere in the day, either before or after as a potential booster. I think honey is also good at night.

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:37 am**

wtf@ someone saying their kratom is like mdma

also, careful with tagamet (cimetidine), will cause gynecomastia if taken regularly

Posted: **Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:53 pm**

add to descartes wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:37 am wtf@ someone saying their kratom is like mdma

also, careful with tagamet (cimetidine), will cause gynecomastia if taken regularly

MDMA kratom lol no but kanna extract would suprise you its very close to rolling bawls. Yes indeed be careful! True! i read that before, but personally i bought one box in a year so i take it easy. Also i saw articles with links to carcinogens with similar pharmaceuticals rincdine or something aka heart burn medicne and zantac . 95% of the time if im trying to lower my tolerance or get a extra kick without increasing my dosage i use black seed oil or fresh juice from grapefruit, ginger, and turmeric.

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:59 am**

Trippyhippydippy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:53 pm
add to descartes wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:37 am wtf@ someone saying their kratom is like mdma

also, careful with tagamet (cimetidine), will cause gynecomastia if taken regularly
MDMA kratom lol no but kanna extract would suprise you its very close to rolling bawls. Yes indeed be careful! True! i read that before, but personally i bought one box in a year so i take it easy. Also i saw articles with links to carcinogens with similar pharmaceuticals rincdine or something aka heart burn medicne and zantac . 95% of the time if im trying to lower my tolerance or get a extra kick without increasing my dosage i use black seed oil or fresh juice from grapefruit, ginger, and turmeric.

be careful taking Kanna and grapefruit together. grapefruit contraindicates with SSRIs and other serotonin-producing drugs. not a lot is known about grapefruit + kanna specifically, but it's probably best to avoid it.

I think you're referring to ranitidine, which was pulled from the market. that's a very different story from that of cimetidine.

Posted: **Tue Jun 07, 2022 10:18 am**

add to descartes wrote: ↑Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:59 am
Trippyhippydippy wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 10:53 pm
add to descartes wrote: ↑Mon Jun 06, 2022 7:37 am wtf@ someone saying their kratom is like mdma

also, careful with tagamet (cimetidine), will cause gynecomastia if taken regularly
MDMA kratom lol no but kanna extract would suprise you its very close to rolling bawls. Yes indeed be careful! True! i read that before, but personally i bought one box in a year so i take it easy. Also i saw articles with links to carcinogens with similar pharmaceuticals rincdine or something aka heart burn medicne and zantac . 95% of the time if im trying to lower my tolerance or get a extra kick without increasing my dosage i use black seed oil or fresh juice from grapefruit, ginger, and turmeric.
be careful taking Kanna and grapefruit together. grapefruit contraindicates with SSRIs and other serotonin-producing drugs. not a lot is known about grapefruit + kanna specifically, but it's probably best to avoid it.

I think you're referring to ranitidine, which was pulled from the market. that's a very different story from that of cimetidine.

Thanks! Good looking out, i learned something today and I appreciate that! Never heard that about grapefruit juice luckily i usually only drink it in the morning before my first burn. Ive only done the kanna about 3 times in two years lol i still got the original gram. I guess what i should have said is heart burn medications have bad wraps all around when used often ...... and wouldn't be advised often. zantac ranitdine cimetidine (gyno) etc

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