Double M Herbals | Kratom Forum

"There is NO such thing as white, green and red stem and vein. This is all nonsense and I will explain why.
Scientifically speaking and realistically speaking, Red Vein leaves are the leaves that grow on 90% of all kratom trees. Green Vein leaves barely exist. They are the albino of kratom. There was an American who lived in Indonesia and studied everything you can imagine about kratom. He and one of my suppliers planted 1000 trees in a plantation. Only ONE out of those 1000 trees produced green vein leaves. The rest were red vein.
White vein usually only grows on trees that are mature. They also are rare and BARELY grow. You are wondering probably how we are consuming whites and greens. Most all kratom is made from red vein leaves. Kratom is kratom. There are strong leaves and weak leaves. There are very good drying/curing processes and very bad ones. Thats all it is. The drying is what changes the color of the powder and the effects. If you take kratom leaves and dry them in bags the powder will turn red. If you take those same leaves and dry them outdoors the powder will turn green. If you dry them indoors and then outside for a bit to crisp them up it turns into what we call white vein. That being said, since all kratom is kratom there is no such thing as white, green or red stem and vein. Its all the same thing!"

I read this from a very trustworthy source.

Hmmm. I'd love to read more from your source to get a better feel for his position, to be honest. I've read that, but I've also seen pics of the various veins and trees, etc. When I was writing the FAQ I tried to include all of the above; it was a bit of a tightrope walk. But I'd happily edit it if I could find more than one or two sources to back this position.

Kratom is Kratom. There are strong leaves and weak leaves ...

Shhhh.. don't let the secret out.. This blows the whole mythology of kratom, the huge variety and vastly different colors and flavors which promote "choice" to the American consumer. We DO love choices!

Personally TODAY I'd prefer to see Red, White, and Blue Kratom!

Actually the more we investigate, and read, from reliable sources .. Color IS all about the drying process. White is most interesting .. I've heard that White kratom is created by indoor drying on the Top Shelf where it's hotter.. then a bit of outdoor sun bleaching which, confirms exactly what you're saying. And makes perfect sense.

I know I've read more than one anecdotal report of people who had inadvertently stored their kratom in glass jars by the window over a period of time, and upon realizing what they'd done were scared it would be weaker only to find it was actually more potent than what they started with. IIRC there was a long thread (or two?) on the main sub last year about exactly that. So I'm not surprised.

But that's still a far cry from "all kratom is the same" which I have seen strenuously argued elsewhere. In actual fact what we get may be mostly one vein color instead of three, I wouldn't be shocked to find that out. But all I really care about are the end effects, and unless you're on agmatine or something it's nowhere near "all the same," thank God. I do indeed love my choices!!!

that's still a far cry from "All kratom is the same"

oh yeah remember that debate on Reddit ? Wow. Obviously there's a range of potency.. But that's the range. I get the feeling that many people are looking for, and hoping for.. something stronger. For plain leaf powder, there IS an upper limit.

Works great for me... But I have friends who can't feel it. Those who've blown out their opiate receptors, through years of heroin use.. Just are NOT going to feel kratom very much. Depending on how many years they've been clean I suppose?

I've talked with many indo suppliers who have stated that the leaves as they form and and grow will have all 3 of the "colors" it depends on what stage of it's life cycle the leave is at. If you look at the lower leaves in this picture you will see that they are white, green, while the top more mature leaves are red veined.

The new video with Christopher McCurdy seems to talk about all three colors and he has been studying Kratom for fifteen years. Ill have to watch it again to see what he said. great interview anyway.

I posted that cause I found it interesting and cause it made a kind of sense. It raises more questions then it answers. I think the drying process is more relevant to the "color" than we are aware. I think a lot of products blend different proportions of leafed dried/cured in a different manner. Somewhere else, I'll have to hunt it up, this vendor talks about how the farmer comes up with a "yellow" as balzy describes, by exposing a certain portion of leaf to different curing conditons, Top Shelf, and then blending it all together.
"color" is somewhat of a code for particular effect. Most find whites fast, reds slow, greens balanced. Though not all fit the profile. But there must be more factors to quality than the drying. i think age of leaf is one of them. Region. Growing conditions. Ive definitely noticed seasonal differences. The author of these remarks was a vendor and this was explained to him by his farmer. I'm gonna check out the above referenced video. The mythology (and marketing) behind it all is fascinating. Wouldnt it be interesting if most of what we consider good comes from the craft of the farmer? And after all, what's in a name....

If only there was somehow a way to scientifically research it and have concrete answers for how it interacts with the brain..

I saw a post from Kat's Botanicals on Facebook earlier today about just this topic.

How all leaves are red veins and the difference is in the drying technique.

I've been told the same things from vendors all over there. Except. They said to me that there are two strains. Maeng da and indo. And the colors depend on the drying.
I'm going to see if I can Get a few kilos of some fresh leafs not dried. And test this theory out myself. I use the fresh leafs right now already in my extracts which seem to me to be a whole other class of extracts doing it that way also.

I use the fresh leafs right now already in my extracts which seem to me to be a whole other class of extracts doing it that way also.

Wow, yeah, it would be. What method/tech do you use to make your extracts?

I'm thinking of this another way, although it's an interesting that we are still learning more about this amazing plant, we really need to understand EVERYTHING about Kratom if we are ever to get to the point of permanent legalization. The simple fact that we still don't understand if there's actual different strains and we hope the FDA won't ban Kratom is laughable. The FDA does years of research before it approves drugs for use and although one could argue this isn't like other drugs we couldn't stand up to argue in favor of legalization if we still don't understand even the basics of strain types.

My comments aren't directed at any one person but rather the collective one of all (including myself). I'm not a scientist nor a doctor thus I'm not the right person to perform the research but we need someone who can. And all of our efforts to avoid banning (calling / writing our reps) is futile until we get a much deeper understanding of what makes this plant tick.

My 2 cents.

-DD

Oh wow, this thread just blew my mind! Because I've spend the past few days trying to read a lot about kratom. How many times did I read misinformation about the veins being red/white/green? So now you guys are saying it's not true- and the color names are just referencing the effects, more or less.

So if all kratom comes from Maeng Da or Indo, then why do different 'strains' such as "elephant" or "Red MD" or "White Indo" have different effects? Do it have something to do with the area it's grown in, the soil, the weather??? Just trying to understand.

Everyone seems to give reviews about how this one, or that one, does this or that, but as a noob, I cannot tell any difference at all, and I've so far tried a Red MD, a Green MD, and a Red Indo. They all seem the same to me. One thing I CAN attest to--the best dose of the day is the first one in the a.m. with coffee!

I went into a glass shop yesterday to grab some of the white I've been most impressed with (one man show out of Denver, BEST kratom I've ever used) and the dude working wouldn't grab the bag of white for me because he didn't differentiate them by color. I was like that one right there, White Borneo dude! And he got all like oh you mean the Boooorneoooo???? Yeah the colors don't matter (they're on the fucking bag) We go by the names. I'm like, whatever dude, and told him a little bit about my experience with each strain I tried. Every time I named one he'd correct me on the Name of the leaf. It pissed me off. Instead of being condescending, be a teacher. So anyway, long story short, yesterday was the first time I've heard of this colors aren't a thing thing. I really don't care, but it would be nice to get concrete info either way regarding kratom. I love this forum, it keeps me on the up and up.

swablero wrote:". Kratom is kratom. There are strong leaves and weak leaves. There are very good drying/curing processes and very bad ones. Thats all it is. T
I read this from a very trustworthy source.

this x 1000

So really, the correct terminology would be red effects, green effects, white effects, instead of red vein, green vein, and white vein?

MetalMamaRocks wrote:So really, the correct terminology would be red effects, green effects, white effects, instead of red vein, green vein, and white vein?

I'm starting to think kratom should be categorized as slow, fast or mid-spectrum. With subsets of euphoria, pain relief, anxiety relief, etc. No colors at all.

MetalMamaRocks wrote:So really, the correct terminology would be red effects, green effects, white effects, instead of red vein, green vein, and white vein?

That's definitely the way I think of it, and thinking of it that way also helps in putting blends together. Dunno about "correct" terminology though.

whiffypants wrote:

MetalMamaRocks wrote:So really, the correct terminology would be red effects, green effects, white effects, instead of red vein, green vein, and white vein?

That's definitely the way I think of it, and thinking of it that way also helps in putting blends together. Dunno about "correct" terminology though.

Haha, yeah there currently is no "correct terminology" is there? Pretty much anything goes.

Agreed, but I almost think that's very much in our favor as kratom users, if only because when we describe effects we are forced to -think- about how to word our experiences in such a way that we will be understood, instead of assuming that everyone knows what we mean because we used a specific term.

I think that's great, and I know I've benefited by it in all the reviews I've read where in the course of describing a particular effect someone went into great detail to be sure people knew what they meant, and that specific detail helped a lot more than all the rest of the generalizations being made.

That, and I don't much like being "correct" as a general rule unless it involves substance as well as form. "Correct" is for lawyers and grammar nazis. Me, I'd far rather just be -right-, which in regard to kratom means accepting that effects can be completely different for anyone at any time, and usually are!

baglicker wrote:I went into a glass shop yesterday to grab some of the white I've been most impressed with (one man show out of Denver, BEST kratom I've ever used) and the dude working wouldn't grab the bag of white for me because he didn't differentiate them by color. I was like that one right there, White Borneo dude! And he got all like oh you mean the Boooorneoooo???? Yeah the colors don't matter (they're on the fucking bag) We go by the names. I'm like, whatever dude, and told him a little bit about my experience with each strain I tried. Every time I named one he'd correct me on the Name of the leaf. It pissed me off. Instead of being condescending, be a teacher. So anyway, long story short, yesterday was the first time I've heard of this colors aren't a thing thing. I really don't care, but it would be nice to get concrete info either way regarding kratom. I love this forum, it keeps me on the up and up.

Ugh that kind of stuff is the worst.

On topic, I read somewhere once that all the different "strains" are just blends of red, green, and white. It's too bad that there really aren't a million strains, it made it fun and interesting.

However, I am open to the possibility that say for instance someone is selling "Cambodian" or "Vietnam", someone might have taken a cutting there and is growing it in Indonesia. Some people like to crap on this and say "oh its all just Indo you are being naive" and such, but it's comparable to Golden Delicious apples being grown wherever. It could happen and I'm willing to bet it does. It may not be very much, but I bet it does.

I am open to the possibility that say for instance someone is selling "Cambodian" or "Vietnam"

yeah while I've never seen a "White Kratom Tree" or a tree growing with gold leaves ...

Kratom trees grow wild in different countries, indigenous to Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Myanmar, Cambodia, etc and it's MORE likely that we'll find variations in those strains. Just like Coffee beans from Sumatra are different from elsewhere.

As soon as the LEGAL situation is resolved, in each country and in USA .. get ready for TONS of good fresh kratom, from these countries .. USA leads the way. We flip Congress, as soon as Trump is gone - Gottlieb will be FIRED from FDA .. we're already reading some news from Thailand that they are considering changing their laws. Could happen within the next 1-2 years

BallzDeep9 wrote: We flip Congress, as soon as Trump is gone - Gottlieb will be FIRED from FDA

From your lips to God's ears.

BallzDeep9 wrote:

I am open to the possibility that say for instance someone is selling "Cambodian" or "Vietnam"

yeah while I've never seen a "White Kratom Tree" or a tree growing with gold leaves ...

Kratom trees grow wild in different countries, indigenous to Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Myanmar, Cambodia, etc and it's MORE likely that we'll find variations in those strains. Just like Coffee beans from Sumatra are different from elsewhere.

As soon as the LEGAL situation is resolved, in each country and in USA .. get ready for TONS of good fresh kratom, from these countries .. USA leads the way. We flip Congress, as soon as Trump is gone - Gottlieb will be FIRED from FDA .. we're already reading some news from Thailand that they are considering changing their laws. Could happen within the next 1-2 years

Yes that is pretty much what I meant.