Double M Herbals | Kratom Forum

I've been LONG overdue to take Kratom break but work has been crazy and never seemed like a good time. My tolerance has steadily risen over the past year even with cycling different strains, I was at 8 grams per burn and occasionally burning twice in a day.

I decided to taper down and ideally get a break before my trip to China for work. My strategy was pretty simple, lower my doses by 1.5g per day and limit my burn to once a day. The first few days as I lowered to 3.5g (8=> 6.5=> 5=> 3.5) went smoothly, no withdrawals and in fact I was still able to feel the benefits from Kratom even at the lower doses. When I hit 2g no withdrawals but no benefit either, basically net zero. I did 2 days at 2g just to ease into going completely Kratom free.

Finally yesterday was my first day with no Kratom at all (in probably more than a year) and I was fine until I went to sleep. Couldn't fall asleep, had really bad RLS (restless leg syndrome), I had taken an ambient which is part of my typical bed time ritual; I should note that I typically take my kratom late in the day (usually btw dinner and bed) and that helps me sleep (along with the ambien at bed). It was pretty quickly that I noticed I wasn't falling asleep and took a 2nd ambien (something I have never done) and still couldn't fall asleep but mainly due to the RLS as I felt super tired and groggy. Then I added a melatonin tablet and still couldn't sleep.

About 4am I broke down and took 3g of Kratom and shortly thereafter (maybe 30 min) I finally fell asleep.

Tonight my plan is to take 2g before bed, I'm pretty sure that will work as I didn't have a problem the last time I took that dose (but I won't feel any of the effects of Kratom at that amount). If that works I will try 1g tomorrow and finally try no Kratom the day after.

-DD

Devil_Dog21 wrote:My strategy was pretty simple, lower my doses by 1.5g per day and limit my burn to once a day.

Good topic, many will benefit from reading this.. I sorta came to the realization that a Split dose, an Evening dose, was necessary due to kratom's short term effects.

I used to enjoy 1 Huge serving mid-day, but next morning was rough.. kratom hangover. My solution was always keeping in mind: Daily Total. Whatever that is, gotta split it about 50/ 50. Now that's my standard approach to using kratom. So when tapering, I'd still follow that plan.

RLS is a bitch. Not sure if Benadryl (diphenhydramine) would help ? I used to do liquid Benadryl every night for sleep.. Until I found out it was hazardous to the prostate! Guys, find something else.. Anyway 1 sublingual Melatonin 3g is now a nightly ritual.. However on occasion, I'll take one of those herbal sleep-aid pills, combo pill with Valerian Root (Swanson brand), those really work.. Too well, may be groggy the next morning.. But anything to avoid RLS I guess?

Everyone should FIND their LTD = Lowest Threshold Dose! That's the key to takiing kratom, and it seems 90% of our fellow kratomites have NO clue, no idea what that's all about.. and a large # of folks are abusing kratom, wondering why they can't feel it, no idea how to manage it, how or why tapering is important.

Good Luck on your taper! You're almost there.

I would suggest to just keep lowering your dose by .5 grams until you hit zero. I would not suggest taking Benadrly to help you sleep. For some reason, it tends to make RLS even worse. Good luck with your taper.

Devil_Dog21 wrote:I've been LONG overdue to take Kratom break but work has been crazy and never seemed like a good time. My tolerance has steadily risen over the past year even with cycling different strains, I was at 8 grams per burn and occasionally burning twice in a day.

I decided to taper down and ideally get a break before my trip to China for work. My strategy was pretty simple, lower my doses by 1.5g per day and limit my burn to once a day. The first few days as I lowered to 3.5g (8=> 6.5=> 5=> 3.5) went smoothly, no withdrawals and in fact I was still able to feel the benefits from Kratom even at the lower doses. When I hit 2g no withdrawals but no benefit either, basically net zero. I did 2 days at 2g just to ease into going completely Kratom free.

Finally yesterday was my first day with no Kratom at all (in probably more than a year) and I was fine until I went to sleep. Couldn't fall asleep, had really bad RLS (restless leg syndrome), I had taken an ambient which is part of my typical bed time ritual; I should note that I typically take my kratom late in the day (usually btw dinner and bed) and that helps me sleep (along with the ambien at bed). It was pretty quickly that I noticed I wasn't falling asleep and took a 2nd ambien (something I have never done) and still couldn't fall asleep but mainly due to the RLS as I felt super tired and groggy. Then I added a melatonin tablet and still couldn't sleep.

About 4am I broke down and took 3g of Kratom and shortly thereafter (maybe 30 min) I finally fell asleep.

Tonight my plan is to take 2g before bed, I'm pretty sure that will work as I didn't have a problem the last time I took that dose (but I won't feel any of the effects of Kratom at that amount). If that works I will try 1g tomorrow and finally try no Kratom the day after.

-DD

Two words, tolerance reducers. Why torture yourself? Look, I know many of you probably think I am full of it, but after a year of Kratom use at around 20 to 30 grams per day, I took 24 hours off without any withdrawals! I am not sure how I can prove it. The reason is not because I am so great, it is because there are MANY substances which will replace taper, as long as they are used regularly, as in daily.

Cat's Claw, Magnesium, DLPA, Turmeric (extract), DXM, Agmatine, etc if used properly completely negate tolerance, I wish I could show it to you guys, but I can't, you will just have to try it yourself or go through inter dose withdrawals for no damn reason. This regimen does not really work for regular opioids. However, for Kratom, it is incredibly effective, likely because Kratom in and of itself has significant tolerance reducing properties. At your level of dosing, you really should not get and interdose or taper withdrawals. There really is a way to use this plant without any side effects at all, but one must take their due diligence in crafting their supplement regimen. Of course, I could just do a write up, but I doubt anyone would believe it. I suppose, a notion of a opioid which produces no side effects or addiction, taken properly, is not something that people are willing to accept at this point. Most believe that pain must be a part of this process OR around the clock dosing, not true at all. All you need is about an 8 to 12 hours each day without Kratom, like when you sleep. That, combined with tolerance reducers, would be sufficient at keeping your tolerance at bay on a permanent basis. I can only prove it if you believe what I say.

I have started with 2 to 3 grams of Kratom per dose about a year ago, went up to about 4 or 5 grams to improve effects. I do take it frequently throughout the day, 4 or 5 times even, but by the evening I am hitting my taper with tolerance reducers. Even at 8, 12, 16 hour points, I get no withdrawals, I do get a bit hot flashy though, not sure how to fight it. But no psychological or physical withdrawal effects at all, and recently I took an entire 24 hours off -- no WD's.

A couple of months ago, someone convinced me that there is no need in adjuncts with Kratom use, just toss 'n wash and fogget bout it.
Yeah, right. Within a week, I was hitting inter dose withdrawals, never happened before. Also, at about 6 to 8 hours off Kratom, which I do nightly, I felt the full effects of a fully blown opioid withdrawal. I couldn't even believe it, thought a vendor mixed some tramadol in my stuff, and not until a few days after I had resumed my tolerance reducing regimen, did the withdrawals begin to subside. What scared me the most is that I would get some WD's even at a 4 hour point post dose, I honestly thought there was something wrong with me. My main tolerance reducers are Cat's Claw (extract) and DLPA, both are dirt cheap on Amazon. Without tolerance reducers, I can only use this plant occasionally, no more than twice per day. Even at that level of use, without anything else, I get withdrawals a few hours after my dose. Another tool is essential oils (Bergamot, Myrrh, etc.), they are pure magic, but I won't get into this in this post because I doubt anyone is even reading it at this point.

Of course, you may choose not to heed any of this, such is your prerogative, but you will be the one to bear the brunt of this decision and certainly not me...

I've started a trend so far (only done this once, mind you. Haven't been taking kratom super long)....

I was at 6g servings averaging 20-24g per day, I split my serving almost in half to 4g and it was just as effective, if not more but it didn't seem to last as long. I would do that for a couple of weeks and then go down to 2g, that generally only lasted a couple of hours but I found with the time in between (not taking every 2 hours on the dot) I averaged less per day. I was down to about 8-12g per day.

I've been climbing back up from 2g to 3g, now I'm taking 4g. When that becomes less effective I'm going to cut it back down to 2g and see what happens. I think it's a matter, at least for me, of playing to the bell curve of effectiveness going up and down (keeping in mind a set daily limit).

DrFappingston wrote:I've started a trend so far (only done this once, mind you. Haven't been taking kratom super long)....

I was at 6g servings averaging 20-24g per day, I split my serving almost in half to 4g and it was just as effective, if not more but it didn't seem to last as long. I would do that for a couple of weeks and then go down to 2g, that generally only lasted a couple of hours but I found with the time in between (not taking every 2 hours on the dot) I averaged less per day. I was down to about 8-12g per day.

I've been climbing back up from 2g to 3g, now I'm taking 4g. When that becomes less effective I'm going to cut it back down to 2g and see what happens. I think it's a matter, at least for me, of playing to the bell curve of effectiveness going up and down (keeping in mind a set daily limit).

Smart. I too vary my doses, playing with that U curve. However, if you add some tolerance reducers to your regimen, you will take it to the next level....

Theanine what is cats claw and how do you use it?

Lambeezy wrote:Theanine what is cats claw and how do you use it?

WIKI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncaria_tomentosa

Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/NOW-Cats-Claw-Ex ... B0013OXCJI

Take one capsules of that Uncaria Tomentosa extract 334 mg 1:10 extract, 1.5% Total Oxindole Alkaloids once or twice per day.

Preferably, after your last Kratom dose of the day. Works wonders!

It is especially helpful if your level of addiction causes inter dose withdrawals, take this to prevent/reduce those.

You will need other tolerance reducers such as bioavailable Magnesium, Agmatine, or the very best of it -- DLPA.

DLPA https://www.amazon.com/Swanson-Amino-Dl ... 002MQC1NY/

It's a good start, best of luck!

EDIT: You can take it with your Kratom, but it will reduce Kratom's mood lifting effects. So, I recommend taking it at least a few hours away from your Kratom dose. The TOA's in Cat's Claw interfere with the absorption of the indole alkaloids found in Kratom which are responsible for its positive effects. Oxindole alkaloids compete with indole alkaloids for absorption in the GI tract and as such, Cat's Claw interferes with Kratom's effects. However, those very same oxinodles is what reverses the Kratom tolerance.

Better life through chemistry.

@Theanine, when taking 20-30 grams a day (even with tolerance reducers) doesn't antagonist from the leaf itself build-up causing days with no effects? Do you use those days for taper, with cats claw and agmatine?

CatfatherB wrote:@Theanine, when taking 20-30 grams a day (even with tolerance reducers) doesn't antagonist from the leaf itself build-up causing days with no effects? Do you use those days for taper, with cats claw and agmatine?

Antagonist build up? I am not aware of such an issue, please elaborate.
What do you mean "days with no effects"?
How could proper kratom not have an effect?
I have only not felt the full effects if I had repeatedly dosed within a single day.
Every consecutive dose provides slightly fewer effects.
Then I reset at the end of the day, by taking at least 8 hours off the leaf.
More often, around 14 hours off or so. Sometimes, I do take another dose at night though.
In the morning, my normal 4 grams of BB's Premium PMD 12 hits me like a bag of bricks, every morning.
I have had bunk kratom which had very few effects, but I think you're talking about something else here.
When I took my tolerance reducer break, a mistake, I've mostly stopped feeling the mood lift, it did take about a week to get there.
At that point, I was simply dosing to eliminate and withdrawals, one is no longer capable of achieving mood lift.
So, you either do microdosing, like so many on here are starting to do, something like 2 gram doses twice a day or use tolerance reducers.
If you do both, it would be brilliant. I wish I could, but I see no real reason to, I enjoy my leaf and I won't apologize for it!

Yes all kratom contains both partial opioid agonist and opioid antagonist, that's the reason you can't increase effects by dosing more?

CatfatherB wrote:Yes all kratom contains both partial opioid agonist and opioid antagonist, that's the reason you can't increase effects by dosing more?

I am aware of that. But what is kratom antagonist buildup that you referred to? Or the no effects for days concept?
I am not saying that they don't exist, I am saying that I have only experienced that when I temporarily discontinued my tolerance reducing regimen.
What you maybe referring to is simply tolerance setting in, the same dose is no longer effective, which is in effect opioid receptor down regulation.
Ever heard of chasing the dragon? Natural Kratom opioid antagonism is insufficient, if it were, it wouldn't have an opioid effect. One must supplement to up regulate their opioid receptors if one chooses to consume this botanical several times per day, every day, such is the price.
But, its a cheap price, just take the right capsules at the right time. Sure, you must spend some money too, but all this stuff is very cheap.
Or cycle, or taper off or suffer silently in withdrawals. Oh yes, or take ever increasing doses without feeling more effects, building up that tolerance.
You choose, the knowledge is there.

I was just asking about taking supplements when doses become less effective, and taking a couple of days to lower your dose? Do you do this or just take the supplements as soon as you finish dosing for the day? I've tried agmatine but when I've taken it, it kills the mood boost for a couple of days after taking it, I was using about 2 grams a day of agmatine, was that too much?

You need to write up your routine!!! I've never heard of multi-dosing everyday and keeping the same effects? I used to could dose 3 times a day with great effects but not anymore, twice tops!

CatfatherB wrote:I was just asking about taking supplements when doses become less effective, and taking a couple of days to lower your dose? Do you do this or just take the supplements as soon as you finish dosing for the day? I've tried agmatine but when I've taken it, it kills the mood boost for a couple of days after taking it, I was using about 2 grams a day of agmatine, was that too much?

You need to write up your routine!!! I've never heard of multi-dosing everyday and keeping the same effects? I used to could dose 3 times a day with great effects but not anymore, twice tops!

You can only maintain regular dosing with effect retention if you use tolerance reducers parallel to your Kratom use. However, that use should not be simultaneous. I had assumed that you knew my regimen, I think I did describe it at some point. I take them all a couple of hours after my last Kratom dose of the day, after that I take at least an 8 hour break, Turmeric extract requires at least that. If I take Agmatine, then I must take at least 12 hours off, but I do find that is sufficient. NEVER take Agmatine with your Kratom, you will kill it. I rarely take Agmatine anyways, when I do it is around 600 mg, quarter teaspoon, 2 grams is too much.

The key to tricking your brain is understanding its biochemistry, I don't claim be a biochemist, but I do read endless research papers, there is much knowledge there which few are even aware of. I was always seeking our sustainability, but short of cutting your doses to very low levels, there is only one other solution, add something to the equation. Most go for less, (lower dose), I advocate for more, but of the right thing.

So, do you rotate between using cats claw and DLPA ,magnesium or ALL after the last kratom dose?

Sorry if I am making you repeat yourself, I have attention issues, by the way, did you ever find any use out of the olive leaf extract?

CatfatherB wrote:So, do you rotate between using cats claw and DLPA ,magnesium or ALL after the last kratom dose?

Sorry if I am making you repeat yourself, I have attention issues, by the way, did you ever find any use out of the olive leaf extract?

I take ALL of them simultaneously, and the Olive Leaf Extract too

Two words, tolerance reducers. Why torture yourself? .....Cat's Claw, Magnesium, DLPA, Turmeric (extract), DXM, Agmatine, etc if used properly completely negate tolerance,

First, I don't think I'm torturing myself, besides the RLS the withdrawals were almost not existent, second, I do use Magnesium. So not sure what your point is, that you never take a break? Well as anyone who's ever taken Kratom can tell you it effects us all differently.

My break wasn't driven out of any particular need or lack of feeling the benefits, it was simply something I've been wanting to do for awhile. Last night 2g went fine, slept fine and now withdrawals. I've already taken my 1g for tonight, I'll keep you posted.

-DD

First, I don't think I'm torturing myself, besides the RLS the withdrawals were almost not existent, second, I do use Magnesium. So not sure what your point is, that you never take a break? Well as anyone who's ever taken Kratom can tell you it effects us all differently.
-DD

FIRST POST:

Finally yesterday was my first day with no Kratom at all (in probably more than a year) and I was fine until I went to sleep. Couldn't fall asleep, had really bad RLS (restless leg syndrome), I had taken an ambient which is part of my typical bed time ritual; I should note that I typically take my kratom late in the day (usually btw dinner and bed) and that helps me sleep (along with the ambien at bed). It was pretty quickly that I noticed I wasn't falling asleep and took a 2nd ambien (something I have never done) and still couldn't fall asleep but mainly due to the RLS as I felt super tired and groggy. Then I added a melatonin tablet and still couldn't sleep.

About 4am I broke down and took 3g of Kratom and shortly thereafter (maybe 30 min) I finally fell asleep.

You're offended by my advice?
HAHA did you not start this topic: "Tapering...ugh" just a couple of days ago? This sounds like a withdrawal to me, but OK!
Look, this is not a critique of you. You made the post first, I was just trying to help.
If it doesn't apply to you, then simply ignore it instead of getting defensive.

My point is not my "special abilities" but rather that there are tools in your tool bag which can be used to completely eliminate all Kratom negatives.
And you've never mentioned any Magnesium, how should I know what you take?
Anyways, Magnesium is not nearly enough, even if it is in its bioavailable form.

I’ll give it a try with the supplements you recommend to start helping not dose Kratom 8-12 hours after last dose . I’ll take all those supplements you mentioned probably before bed and see how it plays out

I've ordered the supplements linked above, due to arrive Friday. I'm hoping they'll allow me to lower my intake on a (semi) permanent basis. As I stated previously, I'm climbing back up into the 16-20g/day territory with admittedly diminished effects compared to the first 3-4 months. I order in bulk and tend to "favorite" strains and don't rotate properly, so I kind of expected that.

I'm curious to know if these supplements will help the strains stay effective, and hopefully return some of the effectiveness I've lost taking them daily. If that's the case then I'm prepared to label Cat's Claw and DPLA "kratom made easy" hahaha. Will it help immediately or should I "reset" myself and start with a lower tolerance?

Weezsti wrote:I’ll give it a try with the supplements you recommend to start helping not dose Kratom 8-12 hours after last dose . I’ll take all those supplements you mentioned probably before bed and see how it plays out

DrFappingston wrote:I've ordered the supplements linked above, due to arrive Friday. I'm hoping they'll allow me to lower my intake on a (semi) permanent basis. As I stated previously, I'm climbing back up into the 16-20g/day territory with admittedly diminished effects compared to the first 3-4 months. I order in bulk and tend to "favorite" strains and don't rotate properly, so I kind of expected that.

I'm curious to know if these supplements will help the strains stay effective, and hopefully return some of the effectiveness I've lost taking them daily. If that's the case then I'm prepared to label Cat's Claw and DPLA "kratom made easy" hahaha. Will it help immediately or should I "reset" myself and start with a lower tolerance?

I found that rotation provides minimum benefit, it all comes down to dose really. Rotating strains simply increases or decreases your dose, because different varieties have differing alkaloid profiles and range in strengths. In that, rotation is useful, but varying your daily dosage or simply lowering is, as have been previously suggested, provides the exact same benefit and result as strain rotation, just my view of it.

It would take more than Cat's Claw and DLPA to fully counteract the setting in tolerance. Magnesium's NMDA antagonism is not nearly enough to counter opioid damage to the brain, and if it's an oxide, it has no use at all except for constipation. Dose variation and tapering is also advised, or strain rotation if that's more fun for you. However, no less important is a daily Kratom break, I can not emphasize it enough! Around the clock dosing of any opioid on the planet would lead to some degree of addiction and tolerance, such is this world. Kratom is very forgiving, like a good mother, but it too punishes, if you misbehave. Non stop dosing without a thought of reducing your tolerance is misbehaving, and the Mother Nature would be quick to point it out via receptor down regulation and the nasty which comes with it. As someone once said, shake your ass, but watch yourself...

Of course, I don't attempt to maintain 24/7. Generally, I'll start in the morning and maintain through the work day. Once I'm home it's hit or miss whether I'll have any more until the next day. Though recently I have been making a habit of a bed time dose, which I have identified as a problem and when I start cutting back it's the first thing to go. I like to have at least 8-10 hours between last serving of the day and the first one of the morning.

Thanks for the wealth of information you've imparted on this thread.

DrFappingston wrote:Of course, I don't attempt to maintain 24/7. Generally, I'll start in the morning and maintain through the work day. Once I'm home it's hit or miss whether I'll have any more until the next day. Though recently I have been making a habit of a bed time dose, which I have identified as a problem and when I start cutting back it's the first thing to go. I like to have at least 8-10 hours between last serving of the day and the first one of the morning.

Thanks for the wealth of information you've imparted on this thread.

You're very welcome, I enjoy it because it allows me to sort out my own thoughts. This is by no means instructional, but rather conversational. I only know so much, and I would like to learn more through member corroboration and research.

Also, when I was talking about around the clock dosing, I was not referring specifically to you. Many, including myself, sometimes have to resort to such things, but only temporarily. It is ok on occasion to hit some sleepy Red or Elephant at night, no big deal really. It is the overall daily dosages and the u curve peaks that matter, this is how our brain forms tolerance, we are not allowed to feel good for long. We're on the Hedonistic Treadmill, more about it some other day....

On another note, there are MANY more opioid tolerance reducers out there including the Kratom itself, such as its stem and vein. I am yet to try that, but I believe that it would also be effective for this purpose, based on what I've read. Other Kratom species too, such as the Mitragyna Hirsuta or Javanica or another of its species. Lately, I have added Gotu Kola to my doses as well as Moringa, they do not seem to interfere with Kratom so I take it at the same time as my Kratom dose, leaving the DLPA, Turmeric extract, Magnesium Glycinate, Cat's Claw for the evening, after my last daily dose. Sometimes, about 8 hours after my last daily dose, I would hit some slow strain for better sleep, it doesn't seem to interfere with my morning dose, so I don't think that going from 3 to 4 to 5 times per day really has that much of a difference because as we all know, Kratom reverses its own tolerance setting effects due to the opioid antagonism. Someone had suggested that, if taken daily, those Kratom opioid antagonists might build up in the system and cause the blockage of Kratom's effects, I have not observed that to be true. I think such reduction in Kratom's effects is caused by around the clock dosing and relates mostly to the brain opioid receptor down regulation which causes Kratom to be ineffective and require higher dosages, it has nothing to do with its antagonism to opioids, in fact that antagonism is what makes Kratom so forgiving.

I've found that Agmatine Sulfate taken a couple of hours after your last dose of the day can help the next morning when going 18+ hours without a burn. Helps me when I'm traveling for work and/or when I get locked down in work conferences. YMMV.

guitartodd77 wrote:I've found that Agmatine Sulfate taken a couple of hours after your last dose of the day can help the next morning when going 18+ hours without a burn. Helps me when I'm traveling for work and/or when I get locked down in work conferences. YMMV.

100% agreed. That's another one of the best opioid tolerance reducers. I too take my Agmatine (600 mg) after my last daily dose, and it helps quite a bit with tolerance. The only downside is it does lower Kratom positive effects if taken WITH your Kratom dose.
If you allow around 12 hours between your Agmatine dose and your Kratom dose, they shouldn't interfere with each other that much.
Although, I have a feeling that the block persists past the 12 hour point, as I have found Kratom's effects to be diminished following an Agmatine dose on the previous day, it may be a placebo effect, but lately I have only been taking my Agmatine maybe twice per week. It might change in the future as more data comes in.

If you guys had to choose just one supplement to help with tolerance, what would it be. Agmatine? Cat's claw? Something else?

herbalhippie wrote:If you guys had to choose just one supplement to help with tolerance, what would it be. Agmatine? Cat's claw? Something else?

Cat's Claw for me, hands down. Second close is the DLPA. Honestly, why not take both? AND 20 mg of DXM on occasion.
Also bioavailable Magnesium, not simply for its NMDA antagonism, but because it is a healthy thing to do.
Magnesium Glycinate/Malate also cuts down on any RLS symptoms and has calmative properties of its own, especially when a speedy strain kicks my butt when I overdo it!

I take magnesium citrate how is that?

Theanine is who set me straight on the Agmatine Sulfate. Initially, I had read conflicting recommendations for the use of the supplement online (not DoubleM) and experienced negative results. I was ready throw it in the back of the medicine cabinet until trying Theanine's recommendation. Now it works very well for me once maybe twice a week if needed and it will be instrumental when I get ready for my next break.

All that to say..Theanine has some solid advice. It looks like Theanine and I are both on a very similar frequency/dosage regiments. I haven't tried cat's claw, DLPA or DMX yet but I'll be stopping by my local botanicals shop after work to pick a few of them up

I also take high absorption magnesium. At the very least, it helps with sustained energy through the day.

Best of luck with your break. I've been there before. It doesn't have to be painful.

herbalhippie wrote:I take magnesium citrate how is that?

Magnesium Citrate is a good version of it, and it also provides the much needed Citric Acid which helps with supplement and Kratom absorption by balancing the acidity of the GI track. It is one of Magnesiums most available forms, although it is less calming than Magnesium Glycinate due to the missing Glycine component which is naturally calmative.

guitartodd77 wrote:Theanine is who set me straight on the Agmatine Sulfate. Initially, I had read conflicting recommendations for the use of the supplement online (not DoubleM) and experienced negative results. I was ready throw it in the back of the medicine cabinet until trying Theanine's recommendation. Now it works very well for me once maybe twice a week if needed and it will be instrumental when I get ready for my next break.

All that to say..Theanine has some solid advice. It looks like Theanine and I are both on a very similar frequency/dosage regiments. I haven't tried cat's claw, DLPA or DMX yet but I'll be stopping by my local botanicals shop after work to pick a few of them up

I also take high absorption magnesium. At the very least, it helps with sustained energy through the day.

Best of luck with your break. I've been there before. It doesn't have to be painful.

Very good, I am so glad that my advice has helped you. If you know something good, why not share it with the world, right?
Since I already take quite a bit of tolerance reducers, I only occasionally resort to the Agmatine Sulfate, but it does make a noticeable difference for me!

Another direction to look towards is essential oils. They too reduce tolerance and no less importantly actually enhance Kratom's own effects if taken with or right after your regular Kratom dose. If someone on here is interested, I could further elaborate.

*BTW guitartodd77, I am working on your shipment, I will email you the USPS Priority Mail tracking number later Today.

Theanine wrote:

herbalhippie wrote:I take magnesium citrate how is that?

Magnesium Citrate is a good version of it, and it also provides the much needed Citric Acid which helps with supplement and Kratom absorption by balancing the acidity of the GI track. It is one of Magnesiums most available forms, although it is less calming than Magnesium Glycinate due to the missing Glycine component which is naturally calmative.

guitartodd77 wrote:Theanine is who set me straight on the Agmatine Sulfate. Initially, I had read conflicting recommendations for the use of the supplement online (not DoubleM) and experienced negative results. I was ready throw it in the back of the medicine cabinet until trying Theanine's recommendation. Now it works very well for me once maybe twice a week if needed and it will be instrumental when I get ready for my next break.

All that to say..Theanine has some solid advice. It looks like Theanine and I are both on a very similar frequency/dosage regiments. I haven't tried cat's claw, DLPA or DMX yet but I'll be stopping by my local botanicals shop after work to pick a few of them up

I also take high absorption magnesium. At the very least, it helps with sustained energy through the day.

Best of luck with your break. I've been there before. It doesn't have to be painful.

Very good, I am so glad that my advice has helped you. If you know something good, why not share it with the world, right?
Since I already take quite a bit of tolerance reducers, I only occasionally resort to the Agmatine Sulfate, but it does make a noticeable difference for me!

Another direction to look towards is essential oils. They too reduce tolerance and no less importantly actually enhance Kratom's own effects if taken with or right after your regular Kratom dose. If someone on here is interested, I could further elaborate.

*BTW guitartodd77, I am working on your shipment, I will email you the USPS Priority Mail tracking number later Today.

Which essential oils do you recommend? I have found stem n vein is very similar in makeup and effect to cats claw.

Which essential oils do you recommend? I have found stem n vein is very similar in makeup and effect to cats claw.

Myrrh and Bergamot oils. Add a couple of drops (50 mg) each into a half a teaspoonful of any carrier oil, place under the tongue, enhance the experience!

Carrier oils are basically any oil liquid at room temperature. I prefer the Sesame oil as the sesamine in that oil has Kratom boosting effects of its own.

Another good one is Nigella Sativa or Black Seed Oil, take about a teaspoon 20 minutes after your Kratom or on its own as it has its own opioid properties.

I took your advice and got magnesium glycinate instead of citrate I take it before bed with melatonin. Sleep good. I use my black seed oil before bed also to fend off any withdrawals before dosing when I wake up as I only dose twice a day. Works pretty good. I’m looking in to some other things you recommended but I don’t want to take anything that my block any of the positive effects or my doses

Lambeezy wrote:I took your advice and got magnesium glycinate instead of citrate I take it before bed with melatonin. Sleep good. I use my black seed oil before bed also to fend off any withdrawals before dosing when I wake up as I only dose twice a day. Works pretty good. I’m looking in to some other things you recommended but I don’t want to take anything that my block any of the positive effects or my doses

Great job on following through with those supplements, you shall reap the rewards! Myrrh oil WILL blow your mind, trust me. Just ensure to get the real oil and not some blend. It won't be cheap, at least 30$ for the good stuff such as the NOW brand. Do not buy any blends as they are maybe 20% in concentration, waste of money. GOOD and proper not blended essential oils are quite expensive, but only a tiny amount is needed. 1 OZ of Myrrh oil lasts me 6 months! There are 20 drops by 50 mg each in each gram, so there are 600 drops in a single ounce! Here is a good one from Amazon, its from Plant Therapy and is the best one you can buy, very expensive:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00QU4BMBG

If you want to go cheaper, but maintain the quality, here is a 2 pack (2 oz) of the NOW brand for the same price as 1 oz of Plant Therapy.
Not quite as good but still very good:

https://www.amazon.com/Now-Foods-Myrrh- ... B0041TZQS2

Bergamot oil, again expensive brand, if you are going for cheaper stuff, ensure it is of proper quality:

https://www.amazon.com/Plant-Therapy-Es ... B01MCVCMBF

With Bergamot, you are better off buying it from Plant Therapy direct as you can get 100 ml (3.3 oz) for $35 shipped.

https://www.planttherapy.com/bergamot-e ... -oil?v=145

Yes, a lot of things do tend to interfere with Kratom, so most things are better taken in your hours off Kratom, a couple of hours after your last kratom dose for the day, with the next one being at least 8 to 12 hours away. If you taper off daily, you will never need to take a break from Kratom, and you feel its good effects every day because you reset your tolerance on a daily basis. It does work.

I make herbal salves and balms and work with essential oils a lot, both medicinally and making natural perfumes.

I get a lot of NOW essential oils from here, they have lower prices. Don't know if they have myrrh though.

https://www.pureformulas.com/#

Most of my essential oils and other supplies i get from Mountain Rose

https://www.mountainroseherbs.com/

I experimented with freshfield brand "Black Seed Oil" this morning, took 1/8 tea-spoon oil & mixed it with 1/4th gram (250 milligram) kratom, didn't notice any RLS trough out the day.
(But then again my usual kratom doses are pretty low, 1 to 2 grams per dose).

SimonBcv wrote:I experimented with freshfield brand "Black Seed Oil" this morning, took 1/8 tea-spoon oil & mixed it with 1/4th gram (250 milligram) kratom, didn't notice any RLS trough out the day.
(But then again my usual kratom doses are pretty low, 1 to 2 grams per dose).

WOW, talk about micro dosing! Good for you. So, it appears that the standardized Nigella Sativa does compliment or even replace Kratom. I too use it for the occasional RLS, along with Magnesium Glycinate and Potassium Gluconate. Eliminates RLS completely without Kratom, in case someone is tapering. Of course, the point of it is dubious as you replacing one opioid with another. Still though, I believe that the Black Seed Oil also reverses opioid tolerance. A good brand must be utilized though, most of what's sold as Nigella Sativa oil is really just some cheap regular oil with some Nigella Sativa in it. It really must be standardized to Thymoquinone.

Freshfield brand offers such standardization. In fact, their batches tend to test at around 4% Thymoquinone, which is very high, even though it is standardized to a minimum 1.6%. Other brands are nowhere close to this level, and you can tell too. This oil is blackish and has a byte to it, like it's supposed to.

https://www.amazon.com/Cold-Pressed-Bla ... B079YYY4QP

Theanine,

Is it possible your withdrawals don’t kick in that fast? It’s hard for me to believe at 20-30 grams a day you don’t get any withdrawal. Maybe 5 per day.

When I was using hard opiates, I could easily make it through the first 24 hours, I wouldn’t start noticing anything until 48-72 hours. I think you should take off longer than 24 hours (like a week) before you convince yourself and other a regimen of tolerance reducers will completely eliminate withdrawals.

However, this all has been great info, very interested in the myrh and cats claw. I’ve been taking magnesium/cayenne/black seed and fish oil, they all help a lot, but even at my 10 grams a day I notice somewhat of a withdrawal, maybe on par with caffeine withdrawal. No offense intended

Cuttlefish wrote:Theanine,

Is it possible your withdrawals don’t kick in that fast? It’s hard for me to believe at 20-30 grams a day you don’t get any withdrawal. Maybe 5 per day.

When I was using hard opiates, I could easily make it through the first 24 hours, I wouldn’t start noticing anything until 48-72 hours. I think you should take off longer than 24 hours (like a week) before you convince yourself and other a regimen of tolerance reducers will completely eliminate withdrawals.

However, this all has been great info, very interested in the myrh and cats claw. I’ve been taking magnesium/cayenne/black seed and fish oil, they all help a lot, but even at my 10 grams a day I notice somewhat of a withdrawal, maybe on par with caffeine withdrawal. No offense intended

Not offended! I taper off on a daily basis, usually 12 hours off the leaf everyday. Its not hard to keep your tolerance at bat with daily tapers and tolerance reducers. Sometimes, I do get a bit uncomfortable at around the 10 to 12 hour point, but by 16 - 18 hours, I feel 100%. This is how I know that the tolerance is minimal, that slight discomfort is the withdrawal, it starts around 12 hours in and all but over by the 18th hour. At 24 hours, there is just nothing, maybe the mood is low but even that is rapidly improving at that point. After the initial 24 hours off, I take a very low dose for me, one teaspoon under the tongue, about 2.5 grams, half my usual dose, and it knocks me on my ass. A clear sign of minimum tolerance. You must remember that Kratom has its own tolerance reducing properties via Mitragynine and other alkaloids. So, by upping the Kratom dose, you are also increasing its tolerance reducing abilities, only to a certain extent though. The rest is taken care of by a daily taper and tolerance reducers. This doesn't work with, lets say, oxicodone because it does not reduce its own tolerance. This is a magical plant, but it too must be used wisely and responsibly. Kratom on!

Ordered some cats claw per your link!
And gotcha, it must just come down to individual biochemistry, my brain has been messed up from heavy opiate use from too young an age, I must be extra susceptible to these things. I too take about 12-16 hours off a day, last dose at 5pm and start at 6-9am depending on work schedule. It has been a long time since I’ve taken more then a day off, I’m due for one. I’m glad it works for you.
Received my first batch of stem and vein from Liza’s, looking forward to experimenting with that.
Kratom literally saved my life, not only from harder opiates but everything else under the sun, been clean over 3 years now. It really is a magical plant, and I live in Ohio so hopefully the government doesn’t go through with their ban, or I’m looking to move if they do. Got like 5000 grams saved up though if they do, ha