Double M Herbals | Kratom Forum

I recently bought 120gr of Green Bali from a vendor that is not on the recommended list here. I found it by a list of the "best" vendors on a "wellbeing" site. It has the AKA approval.
I tried 3 gr 1 1/2gr an hour apart. My stomach started getting upset, and the mood was different than any of the batches recommended here. I didn't like it. Should I stay away from AKA approved sites? That is ironic. The standards are supposed to be as good as they can provide. I am not so sure the AKA's standards are very good and they are growing in power and money to promote and legalize Kratom. They are using standards that serve their own interests not the end user. What do you think? Am I throwing away money to try Kratom from AKA approved site?

Thanks

Name one (1) thing the government has taken over for the better. There's your answer.

mivanqua wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 12:30 pm Name one (1) thing the government has taken over for the better. There's your answer.

I could actually.

You're probably going to say Social Security?

Agreed on that in the early days. Sadly, though, it was doomed to fail. When you take in one dollar for a program and pay out a thousand dollars, it's going to be a problem on down the line (AKA when I retire.)

What were you referring to if not that?

TR and FDR were the real thing, I think. Maybe not though.

mivanqua wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:03 pm You're probably going to say Social Security?

Agreed on that in the early days. Sadly, though, it was doomed to fail. When you take in one dollar for a program and pay out a thousand dollars, it's going to be a problem on down the line (AKA when I retire.)

What were you referring to if not that?

TR and FDR were the real thing, I think. Maybe not though.

Oh man...I don't want too go off topic or wade into politics..but I'll say this and then zip it. Not government takeover, but regulation. Greedy business needs to be reined in. Like the banking industry with, say, predatory loans. Like the clean air and water acts. Like monopoly busting. Like labor laws. Like the civil right act.
I get it.. there's good and bad regulation. It's not always where and how we want it...but there's just too many of us to be without it.
Don't want to wade into hot button topics. So I'll take a bow and exit.
Back to our regularly scheduled programming and a discussion of kratom vendors....

Let me stay away from politics - I am WAY too old to get riled up anymore. Sigh.

The ONLY kratom I am SURE was "bad" was bought from an AKA approved site. It clearly was contaminated - I got severe diarrhea and was sick for two weeks and a few weeks after I recovered (and had taken other kratom in the meantime) thought, well, I just "happened" to get sick a few hours after that one dose and tried again. And, yes, shame on me for being fooled twice (this time I was only severely sick for a week. Must have built up a resistance). Threw out ALL the stuff I bought from that vendor (who shall remain nameless only because it was long before I found this forum and learned that I had better ONLY buy from recommended vendors here).

And that truly is the bottom line - the list here is golden, but there are riches beyond that as individuals post their unsolicited experiences with specific batches. In many years now I've yet to have any issues and I truly do trust the great small vendors here. The large online mass marketers? I wouldn't trust them to find their ass with both hands.

I'm for most regulations, but I fail to see a big benefit here. I've been taking kratom (raw powder, capsules etc.) for about 5 years now. Never got sick from it that I am aware of (I could always blame mild food poisoning or a bug going around work to be fair) and obviously not dead yet in any way What is the big scary threat they are trying to "protect" us from by taxing it to pay for tests that again, don't seem to be necessary ? Has anyone here ever gotten sick directly from 'bad kratom' ? And the wobbles don't count. This just seems like a solution (taxes, AKA fees) for a problem that doesn't really exist, the market seems to work fine without interference, at least now, a decade+ into it.

If a series of legit kratom poisonings happens, then of course, it's looking like time to have an overseeing body to regulate it for the specific thing (mold, whatever) that caused that specific kratom to go bad and make people ill.

Re - The original question, I dunno....Kratom works a little differently from person to person, and from day to day. As a general rule, does it look good (green usually, or rusty colored for some reds). Does it smell like stale grass clippings ? Does it taste like it looks & smells ? Then that's it, that's as good as it gets 99% of the time, relax and try to enjoy it for what it is. And paying more does not always a better product make, or however the saying goes.

mivanqua wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:03 pm You're probably going to say Social Security?

Agreed on that in the early days. Sadly, though, it was doomed to fail. When you take in one dollar for a program and pay out a thousand dollars, it's going to be a problem on down the line (AKA when I retire.)

What were you referring to if not that?

TR and FDR were the real thing, I think. Maybe not though.

are we really going to allow this right wing nonsense in here? ("get the government out of my .....") so much more complicated than you make it, and twist around to suit your position. If this kind of politics is allowed, then we should just go at it. i find it hard not to when this cliched garbage is allowed to stand.

isn't the issue simply that whatever regulations the AKA imposes, they have nothing to do with the quality of the product do they? They don't only approve a product if it say helps pain, or your mood, or makes you feel good in other ways.

So the fact that you can buy shitty kratom from an aka approved vendor is of course possible. That's not what they are about.

Let's stick to the topic of the thread please. Reminder that political discussions are not allowed unless it's related to kratom legislation. All it does is encourage people to argue.

IdiopathicPain247 wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 9:36 am I am not so sure the AKA's standards are very good and they are growing in power and money to promote and Legalize Kratom.

Well AKA is a "Lobbying" organization representing our "Industry" = the vendors. And because of the Legal situation - I agree, it's true that AKA does also represent Consumers - But yes you are correct, Power and Money... it takes lots of money, for any effective legal / political / lobbying effort to be successful.

Money then comes from - those AKA "Members", the vendors Who --> Generate the most money / achieve the highest Profit Margin. How is that done ? By selling kratom at the highest mark-up over cost. Retail stores offer the highest margin and that's true for all kinds of Supplements - Vitamins, Herbs, Cannabis, you name it - the least sophisticated Buyers, the "Casual Buyers" (aka dummies ?) who don't shop Online but still buy stuff at Retail - Walmart, Target, etc.- VS getting lower prices on Amazon or IHerb or other website.

Average may refer to "Quality" or "Price" but it's clear that Retail stores (and AKA vendors in general, ) offer kratom Below average Quality / for Above average Prices!

Nelson Baboon wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 7:21 pm

mivanqua wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:03 pm You're probably going to say Social Security?

Agreed on that in the early days. Sadly, though, it was doomed to fail. When you take in one dollar for a program and pay out a thousand dollars, it's going to be a problem on down the line (AKA when I retire.)

What were you referring to if not that?

TR and FDR were the real thing, I think. Maybe not though.

are we really going to allow this right wing nonsense in here? ("get the government out of my .....") so much more complicated than you make it, and twist around to suit your position. If this kind of politics is allowed, then we should just go at it. i find it hard not to when this cliched garbage is allowed to stand.

I fucking HATE politics. Talking about Theodore Roosevelt and FDR (Franklin Delano Roosevelt) is HISTORY. man, NOT POLITICS. FDR was responsible for the New Deal which incorporated a lot of the social security programs we have today, albeit changed around a bit (to suit them more, not us)
Generally though, like 99.99% of politicians are not Even worth talking about on any level.


I want to quote a pretty grimy fucker who had one good idea and it was :

"Those who can not remember the past are doomed to repeat it."

You know who Jim Jones is?

Yeah, nobody else really does either. Historians, I mean.

Why do you think he had that sign above his head, Nelson, as he and his stooges mass murdered everyone in sight? Serious question.

History and politics are two ENTIRELY different things. We are talking about just under 100 years ago man. Teddy Roosevelt a bit more than that, even. That's POLITICS? OK sorry I mentioned it.

By the way, Nelson, what, exactly, is my "position" that im suiting? That Social Security will be defunkt by the time I need it and they* have been literally stealing my money for absolutely nothing all of these years?

Oh yeah?

Prove me wrong then.





*Who's "they?"

George H.W. Bush
William Jefferson Clinton
George W Bush
Barack Hussein Obama
Donald J. Trump
Joseph Biden

ALL SCUM.

Who's your favorite large-scale fraudster criminal liar, bro?

boureka wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:38 pm

mivanqua wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:03 pm You're probably going to say Social Security?

Agreed on that in the early days. Sadly, though, it was doomed to fail. When you take in one dollar for a program and pay out a thousand dollars, it's going to be a problem on down the line (AKA when I retire.)

What were you referring to if not that?

TR and FDR were the real thing, I think. Maybe not though.

Oh man...I don't want too go off topic or wade into politics..but I'll say this and then zip it. Not government takeover, but regulation. Greedy business needs to be reined in. Like the banking industry with, say, predatory loans. Like the clean air and water acts. Like monopoly busting. Like labor laws. Like the civil right act.
I get it.. there's good and bad regulation. It's not always where and how we want it...but there's just too many of us to be without it.
Don't want to wade into hot button topics. So I'll take a bow and exit.
Back to our regularly scheduled programming and a discussion of kratom vendors....

Agreed!!

mivanqua wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 6:36 am

Nelson Baboon wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 7:21 pm

mivanqua wrote: ↑Sun Oct 01, 2023 2:03 pm You're probably going to say Social Security?

Agreed on that in the early days. Sadly, though, it was doomed to fail. When you take in one dollar for a program and pay out a thousand dollars, it's going to be a problem on down the line (AKA when I retire.)

What were you referring to if not that?

TR and FDR were the real thing, I think. Maybe not though.

are we really going to allow this right wing nonsense in here? ("get the government out of my .....") so much more complicated than you make it, and twist around to suit your position. If this kind of politics is allowed, then we should just go at it. i find it hard not to when this cliched garbage is allowed to stand.

I fucking HATE politics. Talking about Theodore Roosevelt and FDR (Franklin Delano Roosevelt) is HISTORY. man, NOT POLITICS. FDR was responsible for the New Deal which incorporated a lot of the social security programs we have today, albeit changed around a bit (to suit them more, not us)
Generally though, like 99.99% of politicians are not Even worth talking about on any level.


I want to quote a pretty grimy fucker who had one good idea and it was :

"Those who can not remember the past are doomed to repeat it."

You know who Jim Jones is?

Yeah, nobody else really does either. Historians, I mean.

Why do you think he had that sign above his head, Nelson, as he and his stooges mass murdered everyone in sight? Serious question.

History and politics are two ENTIRELY different things. We are talking about just under 100 years ago man. Teddy Roosevelt a bit more than that, even. That's POLITICS? OK sorry I mentioned it.

By the way, Nelson, what, exactly, is my "position" that im suiting? That Social Security will be defunkt by the time I need it and they* have been literally stealing my money for absolutely nothing all of these years?

Oh yeah?

Prove me wrong then.





*Who's "they?"

George H.W. Bush
William Jefferson Clinton
George W Bush
Barack Hussein Obama
Donald J. Trump
Joseph Biden

ALL SCUM.

Who's your favorite large-scale fraudster criminal liar, bro?

the mods don't want us to engage, so i will respect that.

I was only kidding man, there's no right answer. Just like all of the big issues we all fight about.

There IS NO CORRECT ANSWER TO THESE ISSUES.

EXAMPLE :

Abortion. There is no "right" resolution.

Pro-life : want to take away a woman's right to choose what to do with her own body at any cost. Problem : these pro-life organizations are run by mostly MEN and they even want to save rape victim babies because they are ravenous for "good."

Pro- choice : believe the woman should have the right to choose what to do with her own body. Duh! Problem : these pro-choice organizations are mostly run by....take a guess?

Also, you're legitimately killing your baby.


Which one is "right?"

ǝsǝɥʇ ɟo ǝuoN ˙p

ɹǝʍsu∀

When I was 18, although I wanted to keep the baby, my girlfriend decided abortion was the right answer. I think about that and feel neauseaus ALL THE TIME. "She could have been a poet or she could have been a fool" (like her dad) as Morrissey said. Problem : despite bringing me sorrow to this very day, at this moment, knowing how all of that ended, it was the RIGHT decision.

That's how they play the game.

Stop falling for it!

I said that last very personal part so you know I'm not trying to be an asshole. I've experienced (and always will, apparently) the duality of the abortion issue and that's what eventually made me realize all of this.

It's just "the grass is always greener on the other side" every time. Or Tic-Tac-Toe.

Want to play a game?

Remember that? That's what Tic-Tac-Toe always makes me think of.

More than enough said, you are right, but think about it though.

The regulations are to put into place to provide safe kratom, not the best. After you heat sterilize the powder or even gamma treat ( i suspect also does some damage to the mit) the powder isn't as strong, but it is a lot safer.

I honestly think regulations are good overall. Ive seen people sell awful stuff to people who are unaware. Regulations are really just to prevent stupid people from doing stupid stuff, but without enforcement the people still do bad stuff.

Id rather kratom be a little weaker then to get blasted on national news over another salmonella outbreak. That was brutal. Most of the AKA recommended companies could care less about kratom they were CBD/Headshop companies previously. They simply will move onto the next product. Being AKA approved is just a business expense.

Jfish030 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 1:13 pm The regulations are to put into place to provide safe kratom, not the best. After you heat sterilize the powder or even gamma treat ( i suspect also does some damage to the mit) the powder isn't as strong, but it is a lot safer.

I honestly think regulations are good overall. Ive seen people sell awful stuff to people who are unaware. Regulations are really just to prevent stupid people from doing stupid stuff, but without enforcement the people still do bad stuff.

Id rather kratom be a little weaker then to get blasted on national news over another salmonella outbreak. That was brutal. Most of the AKA recommended companies could care less about kratom they were CBD/Headshop companies previously. They simply will move onto the next product. Being AKA approved is just a business expense.

And a big one at that. This is very true and regulation IS good if it isn't just a matter of money all the way around the block, which, here it absolutely is.
Back when Upton Sinclair wrote "The Jungle" (what started the USDA) there was almost no regulation in the meat industry, then they started the regulations, which,.ON THE SURFACE, yeah, great for sure. Thing was, the USDA almost never did any inspections and if the factory failed the super rare inspections, palm-padding could change it. I feel like this whole thing is about money. Not safety. Why can't they focus on BOTH? (READ "THE JUNGLE" IF YOU HAVEN'T)
AS far as the salmonella thing, man, that was nuts. I had some HS that was recalled, didn't return any of it though, in fact, I sold the Green Indo that was recalled to my exes new boyfrend and nightly prayed to the Salmonella God, but alas....nothing. He ended up dying of an OD a few years later.

Not sure that was any more than a smear campaign.

Do you know anyone that actually got sick? Or anyone on the board?

mivanqua wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 2:02 pm Do you know anyone that actually got sick? Or anyone on the board?

There was a shitload recalled from a bunch of different vendors but I don't remember reading about anyone actually getting sick. I think it was more or less a scare tactic from good old Gottlieb.

MetalMamaRocks wrote: ↑Wed Oct 04, 2023 8:40 pm

mivanqua wrote: ↑Mon Oct 02, 2023 2:02 pm Do you know anyone that actually got sick? Or anyone on the board?

There was a shitload recalled from a bunch of different vendors but I don't remember reading about anyone actually getting sick. I think it was more or less a scare tactic from good old Gottlieb.

No people did get sick. I know a vendor personally who got wrapped up into it. People were ending up in the hospital. They would run test and find out you have salmonella. Then ask you questions like what have you eaten in the past 24-36 hours, to write it down. They then submit that information to that state's health agency. Once they get multiple people writing down the same thing they zero in on that common item. The FDA obtained samples and tested the kratom powder and it came back positive, i actually believe the FDA in this instance.

If no one ends up going to hospital the government wouldn't find out. The problem is kratom is sold all over the country so it took a little bit of time for them to figure it out because it was popping up all over and the state's dont really communicate with each other until it becomes something bigger. People get salmonella, ecoli all the time so it takes many cases involving the same product to trigger action.

The salmonella was coming from Indonesia in a processing facility, where they grind the leaves. The equipment wasn't being cleaned so many tons of product had salmonella. No one was really testing back then so no one had any idea. If you go and look at the effected vendor list you might get an idea of how centralized kratom is coming from indonesia. There's really only a handful of facilities that grind 90% of the kratom powder in USA. Most indonesian suppliers just buy from the facilities and sell that powder as their own harvested leaves. Its how it is.


Also you can get salmonella and it can be very mild, depends on your immune system.

Thank you for clearing that up. All I had heard is that "people" had gotten sick, anonymous victims...

I just figured kratom was just getting a little bit too "big for its britches" if you will.

Thanks Jfish. Very interesting!