Double M Herbals | Kratom Forum

https://www.americankratom.org/news/federalkcpa

What will this mean for smallbatch?

Notice KCPA and the AKA's "AKA GMP Qualified" credential.
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The American Kratom Association is elated to announce Federal Kratom Consumer Protection Act legislation has been filed in both the Senate and House. This is a monumental moment for kratom consumers and a significant step towards protecting the rights of millions of Americans. The fight is far from won, but we are only arriving at this exciting event because of the support of so many amazing advocates. Thank you for your dedication and donations, and please read and share the full press release below.

Full Press Release

Washington, D.C. (December 21, 2022) – The bipartisan, bicameral Protect Access to Kratom legislation was introduced in the United States Senate today by U.S. Senators Mike Lee (R-UT) and Cory Booker (D-NJ), and in the US House of Representatives by Congressmen Mark Pocan (D-WI). S.5316 and H.R.9634 will provide needed federal protections for kratom consumers from adulterated products, and to empower consumers to make their own informed choices on kratom products that help them with their health and well-being.

Kratom is a plant that has been used safely for centuries in Southeast Asia and in the United States since the early 1970s. In the last decade kratom consumers have increased significantly where there are now millions of Americans who report responsibly using kratom for a variety of health and wellness purposes, including for an energy boost, increased focus, reducing anxiety, and as a personal harm reduction tool for managing acute and chronic pain.

Proactive consumer protection regulation on a state level has picked up momentum recently – seven states have passed a version of the Kratom Consumer Protect Act. While these laws have been critical in protecting consumers in these states, this federal legislation will provide clear policy across the country for those who produce, distribute, and consume safe kratom products.

“The introduction of this legislation is a landmark victory for kratom consumers across the country. Research has shown kratom to have significantly less potential for harm than substances with a much higher safety and addiction profile and the responsible regulation of kratom products will open the door for continued research. We encourage the swift passage of this bill so that the millions of people who consume kratom every year will have these important protections in place,” said Mac Haddow, Senior Fellow on Public Policy at the American Kratom Association (AKA).

Kratom has a complicated regulatory history in America. In 2016, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration announced their intentions to classify kratom as a Schedule I substance based on FDA recommendations. However, that was rescinded by the DEA following concerns raised by scientists, policymakers, and advocates. In 2018, the Department of Health and Human Services formally withdrew a second FDA scheduling recommendation for kratom citing “the relative lack of evidence, combined with unknown and substantial risk to public health if these chemicals were scheduled at this time.” (Giroir withdrawal letter, August 16, 2018)

In 2021, the World Health Organization Expert Committee on Drug Dependence, comprised of 12 independent scientists from around the globe, reviewed all of the evidence available on kratom and unanimously determined it did not meet the criteria for international scheduling.

“I have heard countless stories of the benefits of kratom experienced by consumers across the country, including veterans, law enforcement officials, and everyday American who credit kratom with saving their lives. This legislation that we introduced today will be life-changing for these Americans. The FDA needs to fulfill its duty to protect consumers, not abuse their powers in ways the Congress never intended,” said Sen. Mike Lee.

Kratom products being standardized and free from adulteration will also be critical for ongoing research. The potential for kratom to be used as a harm reduction tool is actively being explored and was referenced by Dr. Nora Volkow, Director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse, during a U.S. Senate Committee on Appropriations hearing in May. Research published earlier this year found that kratom has a significantly lower potential for abuse than opioids. The University of Florida is also currently conducting research to explore the potential of kratom being a tool that can help to wean off opioid medications.

"Kratom can be a harm reduction tool for those struggling with opioid dependency across the country – it doesn’t belong in our broken drug scheduling system. This legislation will prevent the criminalization of kratom consumers and distributors while promising scientific research is conducted,” said Congressman Mark Pocan.

I just worry that this kind of stuff will make small vendors obsolete. like not being about to sell unless you jump through hoops or pay a fee to be a "certified" vendor. i trust RVA and Benni to sell me uncut stuff, i don't need anyone else vouching for them lol

Yeah, I see this as a two-edged sword. While there's no doubt we could use some standardization in some areas, I've never seen a case where more government made things better (and I was a state employee for 30 years :>).

The larger the government, the smaller the citizen.

Cant all small vendors just go privet? Thats if they get stabbed with the other end of sword?

So they're gonna tax it then. Either directly, or by adding the costs of licensing and testing and whatever else to vendors who will then pass it on to customers. Yay capitalism etc.

onespeedstop wrote: ↑Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:16 pm So they're gonna tax it then. Either directly, or by adding the costs of licensing and testing and whatever else to vendors who will then pass it on to customers. Yay capitalism etc.

Actually selling it for profit is capitalism. Your small batch vendors are typical small business owners hence they are capitalists. The government taxing and regulating things is not because of capitalism.

Alhough greed and capitalism absolutely pass as synonyms these days.

I just don't trust the government to handle kratom in a reasonable & fair manner. They screw up everything they touch. Telephones were cheap & easy to use until government regulation kicked in, then prices soared. For something more current just look at your grocery expenditures for the last month. Look at gas prices. Look at home energy prices. That's what government regulation does.

pray4peace4 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:01 pm I just don't trust the government to handle kratom in a reasonable & fair manner. They screw up everything they touch. Telephones were cheap & easy to use until government regulation kicked in, then prices soared. For something more current just look at your grocery expenditures for the last month. Look at gas prices. Look at home energy prices. That's what government regulation does.

This.

There are some really nasty politics going on behind the scenes in US kratom, particularly at the State and County levels. Just now beginning to see how truly nasty it is.

State level - wanna know who the biggest anti-kratom cohorts are? "drug treatment centers," so-called rehabs, detox clinics, suboxone clinics, sober-living facilities. They hate kratom because it takes money out of their pockets, and I mean BIG money. This includes their ability to keep their "census" up and billing insurance companies multiple thousands of dollars, federal subsidies for their "treatment programs", NIMH and SAMHSA grants and funding, big bucks private funding from rich-kid-on-dope families, making the "clients" do free work for the facility, and the list goes on. Mostly 12-step based programs, detox, inpatient, outpatient, aftercare, sober-living, half-way house, etc, and the suboxone or "MAT" medication assisted treatment programs - suboxone, methadone, where they enslave you.

We know many stories about how people quit drinking and harder drugs because they found kratom-- 3 step program: 1) buy good kratom, 2) eat it, 3) feel much better and function unfucked.

The above noted drug "treatment" MONEY SIPHONS play around in big money--some are franchised, and like to mingle and get cozy with local and state government for grants, money, funding, and because it looks good for local and state government to APPEAR to be offering help to drug addicts, alcoholics, etc. Which okay, maybe they do some good, somewhere. But there are MANY make-shift type programs that don't give a fuck about addicts/alcoholics but want a piece of that money pie.

Many local and state politicians love to be able to claim they are DOING SOMETHING about the drug / "OPIOID" (fentanyl) epidemic - especially by "supporting" these treatment facilities. So we have the treatment facilities making campaign contributions to the legislators, local councilman, you name it. And then they have their ear. And because kratom has been such an amazing success with millions of people, the treatment people get up in the lawmaker's face and demonize it, and make kratom lies and drama about how addictive and horrible and dangerous it is. The treatment people try to get the lawmakers and local county government to see it as JUST ANOTHER "LEGAL WEED" or "SPICE" or fuckin "BATH SALTS" or whatever, and that it needs to be BANNED! Not, mind you, for legitimate altruistic purposes, but because it's cutting into their profits. Not because there are kratom junkys clinging to life in depravity or ODing and going to the ER, but because their CENSUS is low. They need more CLIENTS, more CASES, more DOPE FIENDS, more vulnerable people to exploit for CASH IN THEIR POCKETS in the name of REHABILITATION.

That's the dirty truth. Watch some of these video recordings of local counties and state government meetings trying to BAN KRATOM, and who do you see? A ton of people representing "TREATMENT CENTERS" or people who know owners of such slimey facilities.

Not all treatment facilities are slimey, but a fuckton of them are, and they are using KRATOM as their sacrificial lamb to SIPHON more cash from vulnerable people and the corrupt ass governments.

The way it is. Damn shame.

uspatriot995 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:12 pm There are some really nasty politics going on behind the scenes in US kratom, particularly at the State and County levels. Just now beginning to see how truly nasty it is.

State level - wanna know who the biggest anti-kratom cohorts are? "drug treatment centers," so-called rehabs, detox clinics, suboxone clinics, sober-living facilities. They hate kratom because it takes money out of their pockets, and I mean BIG money. This includes their ability to keep their "census" up and billing insurance companies multiple thousands of dollars, federal subsidies for their "treatment programs", NIMH and SAMHSA grants and funding, big bucks private funding from rich-kid-on-dope families, making the "clients" do free work for the facility, and the list goes on. Mostly 12-step based programs, detox, inpatient, outpatient, aftercare, sober-living, half-way house, etc, and the suboxone or "MAT" medication assisted treatment programs - suboxone, methadone, where they enslave you.

We know many stories about how people quit drinking and harder drugs because they found kratom-- 3 step program: 1) buy good kratom, 2) eat it, 3) feel much better and function unfucked.

The above noted drug "treatment" MONEY SIPHONS play around in big money--some are franchised, and like to mingle and get cozy with local and state government for grants, money, funding, and because it looks good for local and state government to APPEAR to be offering help to drug addicts, alcoholics, etc. Which okay, maybe they do some good, somewhere. But there are MANY make-shift type programs that don't give a fuck about addicts/alcoholics but want a piece of that money pie.

Many local and state politicians love to be able to claim they are DOING SOMETHING about the drug / "OPIOID" (fentanyl) epidemic - especially by "supporting" these treatment facilities. So we have the treatment facilities making campaign contributions to the legislators, local councilman, you name it. And then they have their ear. And because kratom has been such an amazing success with millions of people, the treatment people get up in the lawmaker's face and demonize it, and make kratom lies and drama about how addictive and horrible and dangerous it is. The treatment people try to get the lawmakers and local county government to see it as JUST ANOTHER "LEGAL WEED" or "SPICE" or fuckin "BATH SALTS" or whatever, and that it needs to be BANNED! Not, mind you, for legitimate altruistic purposes, but because it's cutting into their profits. Not because there are kratom junkys clinging to life in depravity or ODing and going to the ER, but because their CENSUS is low. They need more CLIENTS, more CASES, more DOPE FIENDS, more vulnerable people to exploit for CASH IN THEIR POCKETS in the name of REHABILITATION.

That's the dirty truth. Watch some of these video recordings of local counties and state government meetings trying to BAN KRATOM, and who do you see? A ton of people representing "TREATMENT CENTERS" or people who know owners of such slimey facilities.

Not all treatment facilities are slimey, but a fuckton of them are, and they are using KRATOM as their sacrificial lamb to SIPHON more cash from vulnerable people and the corrupt ass governments.

The way it is. Damn shame.

This freaks me out living in the Midwest

It will do nothing. Small batch kratom vendors mainly purchase from domestic USA wholesalers. If they always have kratom to sell i promise you they arent importing small batches and or arent importing kratom. Importing kratom via small batch methods you run into issues where shipments can take 3-5 months to arrive. If they arent running out of powder then they aint importing small batches and or are not importing at all. They are buying domestic kratom that arrives in under a week. The good news is that purchasing this way helps with CGMP compliance and all the future regulations. Its done on purpose. The real money makers are the ones importing sea containers weekly and selling by the ton with $3-5 kilo mark up per kilo.

Below is a photo from our last shipment. We import and I seriously doubt a large majority of kratom vendors actually import their own kratom. Which means everyone will be ok, the powder will be the same. They al buy domestically because its easier,cheaper, no headaches like this. So small batch will be ok

https://ibb.co/m6x9mfZ

Jfish030 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:27 pm It will do nothing. Small batch kratom vendors mainly purchase from domestic USA wholesalers. If they always have kratom to sell i promise you they arent importing small batches and or arent importing kratom. Importing kratom via small batch methods you run into issues where shipments can take 3-5 months to arrive. If they arent running out of powder then they aint importing small batches and or are not importing at all. They are buying domestic kratom that arrives in under a week. The good news is that purchasing this way helps with CGMP compliance and all the future regulations. Its done on purpose. The real money makers are the ones importing sea containers weekly and selling by the ton with $3-5 kilo mark up per kilo.

Below is a photo from our last shipment. We import and I seriously doubt a large majority of kratom vendors actually import their own kratom. Which means everyone will be ok, the powder will be the same. They al buy domestically because its easier,cheaper, no headaches like this. So small batch will be ok

https://ibb.co/m6x9mfZ

I disagree that small batch vendors mainly purchase from domestic USA wholesalers. That's simply not true. They are ordering/importing "small" batches from certain suppliers in Indonesia--mostly by AIR freight, not by shipping container, so they arrive in a matter of weeks not 3-5 months. They do "run out" from certain suppliers, and that's why they cultivate and keep relationships with 4-5 suppliers in Indonesia. So YES indeed they are importing. Some may buy domestic kratom, but not the ones I use. It's just not on the level of 500kg-1000kg/month. That's why it's called "small batch". I see your intentions are good, and I've tried your leaf and some of it is really good. But trust me, there are small batch vendors that import directly and consistently have crazy-fire leaf.

uspatriot995 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:42 am

Jfish030 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:27 pm It will do nothing. Small batch kratom vendors mainly purchase from domestic USA wholesalers. If they always have kratom to sell i promise you they arent importing small batches and or arent importing kratom. Importing kratom via small batch methods you run into issues where shipments can take 3-5 months to arrive. If they arent running out of powder then they aint importing small batches and or are not importing at all. They are buying domestic kratom that arrives in under a week. The good news is that purchasing this way helps with CGMP compliance and all the future regulations. Its done on purpose. The real money makers are the ones importing sea containers weekly and selling by the ton with $3-5 kilo mark up per kilo.

Below is a photo from our last shipment. We import and I seriously doubt a large majority of kratom vendors actually import their own kratom. Which means everyone will be ok, the powder will be the same. They al buy domestically because its easier,cheaper, no headaches like this. So small batch will be ok

https://ibb.co/m6x9mfZ

I disagree that small batch vendors mainly purchase from domestic USA wholesalers. That's simply not true. They are ordering/importing "small" batches from certain suppliers in Indonesia--mostly by AIR freight, not by shipping container, so they arrive in a matter of weeks not 3-5 months. They do "run out" from certain suppliers, and that's why they cultivate and keep relationships with 4-5 suppliers in Indonesia. So YES indeed they are importing. Some may buy domestic kratom, but not the ones I use. It's just not on the level of 500kg-1000kg/month. That's why it's called "small batch". I see your intentions are good, and I've tried your leaf and some of it is really good. But trust me, there are small batch vendors that import directly and consistently have crazy-fire leaf.

Its cheaper 1/5th the cost of air cargo importing yourself, comes with being "lab tested" , no headaches, arrives in a few days, 1.5% or better money back guarantee on greens. Im not joking about that at all. That point should make you consider it. I havent noticed anyone saying their sold out, waiting for a new restock, but maybe you have? That used to happen often years ago and especially with smaller vendors. I learned our lesson after the second time that happened to us so we order more then we need to float the shipping issues, jumping from a smaller batch guy to a regular one. It would be insanely /impossibly hard to run small batches and not run out due to shipping issues or customer order fluctuations.

Jfish030 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:31 pm

uspatriot995 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:42 am

Jfish030 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:27 pm It will do nothing. Small batch kratom vendors mainly purchase from domestic USA wholesalers. If they always have kratom to sell i promise you they arent importing small batches and or arent importing kratom. Importing kratom via small batch methods you run into issues where shipments can take 3-5 months to arrive. If they arent running out of powder then they aint importing small batches and or are not importing at all. They are buying domestic kratom that arrives in under a week. The good news is that purchasing this way helps with CGMP compliance and all the future regulations. Its done on purpose. The real money makers are the ones importing sea containers weekly and selling by the ton with $3-5 kilo mark up per kilo.

Below is a photo from our last shipment. We import and I seriously doubt a large majority of kratom vendors actually import their own kratom. Which means everyone will be ok, the powder will be the same. They al buy domestically because its easier,cheaper, no headaches like this. So small batch will be ok

https://ibb.co/m6x9mfZ

I disagree that small batch vendors mainly purchase from domestic USA wholesalers. That's simply not true. They are ordering/importing "small" batches from certain suppliers in Indonesia--mostly by AIR freight, not by shipping container, so they arrive in a matter of weeks not 3-5 months. They do "run out" from certain suppliers, and that's why they cultivate and keep relationships with 4-5 suppliers in Indonesia. So YES indeed they are importing. Some may buy domestic kratom, but not the ones I use. It's just not on the level of 500kg-1000kg/month. That's why it's called "small batch". I see your intentions are good, and I've tried your leaf and some of it is really good. But trust me, there are small batch vendors that import directly and consistently have crazy-fire leaf.

Its cheaper 1/5th the cost of air cargo importing yourself, comes with being "lab tested" , no headaches, arrives in a few days, 1.5% or better money back guarantee on greens. Im not joking about that at all. That point should make you consider it. I havent noticed anyone saying their sold out, waiting for a new restock, but maybe you have? That used to happen often years ago and especially with smaller vendors. I learned our lesson after the second time that happened to us so we order more then we need to float the shipping issues, jumping from a smaller batch guy to a regular one. It would be insanely /impossibly hard to run small batches and not run out due to shipping issues or customer order fluctuations.

I'm sorry man, you lost me there in your response. I was responding to your claim that "Small batch kratom vendors mainly purchase from domestic USA wholesalers". There have been multiple public and private conversations about small batch vendor's sourcing approach. My experience is, assuming they're telling the truth, that none of them use domestic USA wholesalers at all. The conversations and information reflect various routes and shipping methods directly from Indonesia--be it farmers, wholesalers, families, or even brokers. Unless these are elaborate hoaxes, I'm pretty sure they're sourcing leaf directly from Indo. I don't pay that much attention to it, because what matters to me is quality--and these small batch folks have the fire.

I'm not saying domestic bulk can't be good or even really good. I'm sure certain batches are. But how well would a smallbatch vendor be able to control their quality if they bought it by the ton(s)? And, I don't know that it's strictly a MIT % issue. Again we come to that ever elusive notion of quality VARIANCE between batches. We all know leaf quality varies (independently of the "personal chemistry" thing). Having burned overpriced head shop bulk garbage for some time, and even ordering from some "public" vendors, I can anecdotally say that without a doubt I have experienced a SIGNIFICANTLY higher degree of quality through small batch vendors. And to my knowledge, none of them source from domestic wholesalers, none.

Finally, as always there are exceptions both ways. Very rarely I've burned small batch leaf that didn't hit very well. And rarely I have burned domestic/bulk leaf and been shocked how good it was. Dare I say, however, that on the few occasions small batch leaf didn't hit very well - it hit on the order of regular bulk/domestic leaf.

Hope that makes sense. And yeah, I don't know the particulars of shipping or cost or all that, and my small batch sources could be very different than others. What I can say is that I'm relatively certain none of what I'm burning is sourced domestically as you referenced in your post.

Peace, cat daddy.

I will agree that it is absolutely a nightmare to maintain a small batch operation with little capital. I also very much suspect that anyone who restocks every 10 days or less is NOT importing directly. I know for a fact that there are vendors selling "bulk packs" of 10kg for $50/kg that is unprocessed/raw "small batch quality". We have been offered this . That being said, we have always imported directly from Indo, and any door to door time exceeding 3 weeks is rare.

pray4peace4 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:01 pm I just don't trust the government to handle kratom in a reasonable & fair manner. They screw up everything they touch. Telephones were cheap & easy to use until government regulation kicked in, then prices soared. For something more current just look at your grocery expenditures for the last month. Look at gas prices. Look at home energy prices. That's what government regulation does.

Well said! Imagine all the people living life in peace- John Lennon.

Anything that remotely threatens the US Governments opium push and Big Pharma's poison is going to be attacked.

This is becoming more and more their strategy to destroy every avenue of people becoming self-sufficient. Rain barrel water collecting, Family owned farms, Individual home ownership, Small businesses - EVERYTHING.

I don't know what the answer is as every single politician out there we vote for is either a fraud or a coward.

Does anyone have news on this bill? Something tells me to be skeptical about its passing, considering the current circumstances. But perhaps it can be included in with something else with bipartisan support, so it gets "ferried" through, as it were.

pray4peace4 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:01 pm I just don't trust the government to handle kratom in a reasonable & fair manner. They screw up everything they touch. Telephones were cheap & easy to use until government regulation kicked in, then prices soared. For something more current just look at your grocery expenditures for the last month. Look at gas prices. Look at home energy prices. That's what government regulation does.

President Ronald Reagan said, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are 'I’m from the government and I'm here to help.'"

Yep. It virtually NEVER ends well for We the People.

SeventhHeaven wrote: ↑Wed Mar 01, 2023 11:30 pm

pray4peace4 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 24, 2023 3:01 pm I just don't trust the government to handle kratom in a reasonable & fair manner. They screw up everything they touch. Telephones were cheap & easy to use until government regulation kicked in, then prices soared. For something more current just look at your grocery expenditures for the last month. Look at gas prices. Look at home energy prices. That's what government regulation does.

President Ronald Reagan said, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are 'I’m from the government and I'm here to help.'"

Yep. It virtually NEVER ends well for We the People.

That's funny, because govt regulation is not the culprit for gas prices, grocery prices, and energy prices. They actually aren't being regulated, which is why they're so ridiculously high. With all of them, you can thank their respective companies for choosing their stock holders over the people. Gas companies like Exxon and Chevron are more interested in stock buybacks and exponential growth, quarter after quarter, than helping any actual people. Have you seen how much they're making? Tens of billions of dollars every year. Look at energy companies, they're making remarkable profit, and they made an exorbitant amount during the pandemic especially. Those companies know that the people are struggling; they do not care. It's profits over people; always.

I'm definitely not trying to run cover for Reagan, he absolutely sucks, for many reasons which I won't get into here. It's strange that anyone thinks regulation is to blame for those issues The problem is that these companies are not being regulated, therefore they're allowed to set their own prices, price gouge all they want, and the American people will just blame it on "inflation."

I'm sure people will reflexively disagree, instead of looking up the facts themselves, because they heard it on their favorite TV show/talk radio program, and they prefer that over the truth. I don't expect to change anyone's mind, but maybe I'll convince you to look up the facts, and not trust fox news to get it right for you (mighty interesting court case they're going through now, where they admit that they're entertainment, not news)

That's funny, because govt regulation is not the culprit for gas prices, grocery prices, and energy prices. They actually aren't being regulated, which is why they're so ridiculously high. With all of them, you can thank their respective companies for choosing their stock holders over the people. Gas companies like Exxon and Chevron are more interested in stock buybacks and exponential growth, quarter after quarter, than helping any actual people. Have you seen how much they're making? Tens of billions of dollars every year. Look at energy companies, they're making remarkable profit, and they made an exorbitant amount during the pandemic especially. Those companies know that the people are struggling; they do not care. It's profits over people; always.

I'm definitely not trying to run cover for Reagan, he absolutely sucks, for many reasons which I won't get into here. It's strange that anyone thinks regulation is to blame for those issues The problem is that these companies are not being regulated, therefore they're allowed to set their own prices, price gouge all they want, and the American people will just blame it on "inflation."

I'm sure people will reflexively disagree, instead of looking up the facts themselves, because they heard it on their favorite TV show/talk radio program, and they prefer that over the truth. I don't expect to change anyone's mind, but maybe I'll convince you to look up the facts, and not trust fox news to get it right for you (mighty interesting court case they're going through now, where they admit that they're entertainment, not news)
[/quote]

Thank you for saying this! Though I would add that it’s not just Fox News that is spewing disinformation.

The part that bugs me is the 'ifs'. Regulation -can- increase safety, but it -will- increase cost. I don't like trading a for sure (will) for an if (can). Maybe I'm just not the gambling type.

Also, I've never seen a news story about someone dying from kratom, it's only ever been with half a dozen or 17 other illegal and/or dangerous substances at the same time. Other than the possibility of heavy metal contamination, what is there to regulate ? Isn't it already sold only to people 18+ ? Just seems like yet another tax grab.

More like a veiled threat to the AKA for more money. But yeah, I agree. Like someone said before, there isn't a single thing that got better because the government took over, in fact, the list of ruined shit could literally go on forever.