KRATOM is Addictive or?

[Jfish030]

addiction i learned one time from a group.

Does it mess up your money, Yes/No.
Does it mess up your relationships yes/No
Does it mess up your work yes/No.

If its yes to anything then you have to quit. All no over here for me.

[Sassysquatch]

addiction i learned one time from a group.

Does it mess up your money, Yes/No.
Does it mess up your relationships yes/No
Does it mess up your work yes/No.

If its yes to anything then you have to quit. All no over here for me.

Thanks for putting it this way. All no’s for me, too. Now I can quit with the guilt every time I order something new.

[Indo_gmp]

addiction i learned one time from a group.

Does it mess up your money, Yes/No.
Does it mess up your relationships yes/No
Does it mess up your work yes/No.

If its yes to anything then you have to quit. All no over here for me.

WOW, that just satisfied me, bro..

I'll say NO for all of those above

[Totomman]

addiction i learned one time from a group.

Does it mess up your money, Yes/No.
Does it mess up your relationships yes/No
Does it mess up your work yes/No.

If its yes to anything then you have to quit. All no over here for me.

While I understand, while I was in AA an atleast big millionair shared his cocaine story, him and all his friends would buy bricks so none of those criteria applied. Come to think of it, those wouldn’t apply?

[Kelleytoons]

Actually, I'm pretty sure the second would apply.

Robin Williams always used to say "Cocaine is God's way of saying you make too much money". And it TOTALLY messed him up in all three aspects. You can NEVER have enough money if you're doing coke.

[Eluard]

Again, folks, you are missing the forest for the trees - if there was ANY evidence (even made up shit) this was addictive it wouldn't be available. End of story.

But - I'm wasting my time here on a pointless discussion, so I won't revisit this thread. Some folks just can't be taught.

There are a few truly notably addictive substances that are not banned - and they are super bad for health and well being: nicotine as in cigarettes, and alcohol - both cause/ have caused so much human misery. As we all know it was quite a struggle to get corporate tobacco to admit nicotine is addictive. My husband is from Finland, lovely country where drinking is a national problem. And kratom is banned there.Too bad, they need it.

I don't think the discussion is pointless because kratom addiction / dependency however you want how to characterize it is a concern of so many. How to take breaks, dosing, how to taper is of interest to many.

This is my first time posting and for several reasons. I apologize for lurking. When I joined I had no experience and felt I had little to add, then I have been quite laid up from a serious accident. But when I introduce myself to the group, I will explain that. I particularly want to thank BallzDeep for his fabulous kratom vendor list. I'd like to thank you all as reading is something I have been able to do (usually). Ok sorry for the diversion.

[BallzDeep9]

This is my first time posting and for several reasons. I apologize for lurking. When I joined I had no experience and felt I had little to add, then I have been quite laid up from a serious accident. But when I introduce myself to the group, I will explain that. I particularly want to thank BallzDeep for his fabulous kratom vendor list. I'd like to thank you all as reading is something I have been able to do (usually). Ok sorry for the diversion.

ALL opinions are welcome, Thanks for posting! And I appreciate the remark, been wondering if the Vendor List is still useful... working on a new domain for hosting in a Wordpress format so more people can find it better.

Sure seems like, so MANY negative reports of "addiction" with Kratom ? Over the past couple of years ? As we know, there is FEAR of the unknown, and people fear what they don't understand - And everything is supposed to be FDA Approved and come packaged in a nice neat box at Walmart ? lol... I respond to those negative nannies online, that Kratom IS the #1 herbal discovery of the past 30+ Years!! and only because it was NOT known in the West (USA and Europe) 30 years ago... it was not included in DSHEA Act of 1994.

I mean, you'd THINK that.. by Now... people would realize that MILLIONS of people enjoy Kratom and... nobody dies. You literally cannot Overdose, on even large servings!! ~ But that leaves, fear of addiction I guess. And association with "drug addicts" which our society deplores. To those who are fearful I can only SAY.... Sugar ?? you just LOVE those Xmas cookies, donuts, candies and chocolates. Yes ?? Well... here in USA, it's the Battle Of The Bulge. Just VISIT any Walmart store... you'll see people SO terribly obese and heavy, they cannot walk! Not wanting to offend anyone struggling with a Sugar addition (raise my hand!) but... yeah. Diabetes here. Pretty much anything that's GOOD - is addictive. Or habit forming at least!

[Kelleytoons]

There are a few truly notably addictive substances that are not banned

Because you're new I won't jump on you too hard, but you (like others here) are missing the point. While there ARE addictive substances which are legal, it's only because those make obscene amounts of money for folks. Trust me, let me repeat, if kratom was addictive in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM it would have been banned by now. Because there ain't any big money behind it (and Big Pharma - despite the foolish folks who think otherwise - want nothing like it to compete with them). They have tried - and the FDA tried - and they could not. Because. It's. Not. Addictive.

If you don't get this then I can't belabor it anymore (and I really thought I would not even revisit this thread so I promise I won't from now on. Because, honestly, it ain't rocket science. You just follow the money. The things that get folks into trouble, be it cigarettes, alcohol, or drugs legal or illegal all are about the money. Kratom is unique - no one is making money from it, not even the vendors (I will bet anyone a dollar there ain't no rich folks selling it).

And to reiterate again - ANYTHING can be PSYCHOLOGICALLY addictive. Ain't the same thing at all. And now, I am truly out of here.

[Fhietra899]

ALL opinions are welcome, Thanks for posting! And I appreciate the remark, been wondering if the Vendor List is still useful... working on a new domain for hosting in a Wordpress format so more people can find it better.

Sure seems like, so MANY negative reports of "addiction" with Kratom ? Over the past couple of years ? As we know, there is FEAR of the unknown, and people fear what they don't understand - And everything is supposed to be FDA Approved and come packaged in a nice neat box at Walmart ? lol... I respond to those negative nannies online, that Kratom IS the #1 herbal discovery of the past 30+ Years!! and only because it was NOT known in the West (USA and Europe) 30 years ago... it was not included in DSHEA Act of 1994.

I mean, you'd THINK that.. by Now... people would realize that MILLIONS of people enjoy Kratom and... nobody dies. You literally cannot Overdose, on even large servings!! ~ But that leaves, fear of addiction I guess. And association with "drug addicts" which our society deplores. To those who are fearful I can only SAY.... Sugar ?? you just LOVE those Xmas cookies, donuts, candies and chocolates. Yes ?? Well... here in USA, it's the Battle Of The Bulge. Just VISIT any Walmart store... you'll see people SO terribly obese and heavy, they cannot walk! Not wanting to offend anyone struggling with a Sugar addition (raise my hand!) but... yeah. Diabetes here. Pretty much anything that's GOOD - is addictive. Or habit forming at least!

Everythings with good and great sensations make ppl addicted and dependence.
And of course the vendors list still usefull as references for ppl, and i think lets update it..

[HappyD]

There’s so many angles to look at this from. I guess I’m an “anything can be addictive” person. However I think some people just get it worse than others.

Everyone is different and I think ultimately what it boils down to is if it isn’t hurting you or anyone else then let it be.

[tasha99]

I can't speak for others, but for me, it's not. I took it daily for about a year when I had some chronic back pain. I'm the perfect example of why you should always consider the cause before treating pain-- I took it, but after taking a road trip to see my father in law, I figured out my back pain was due to my bed. I fixed that, and dropped my kratom use with no problem. Now I take it a few days a month for menstrual pain. I had no issues downgrading--no pain meant no reaason to take it. Might be different for others, though.

[Lokey]

That's interesting, when I was on FB so many said that time of the month was the only time kratom did not work or help.

[Flysonsyd]

addiction i learned one time from a group.

Does it mess up your money, Yes/No.
Does it mess up your relationships yes/No
Does it mess up your work yes/No.

If its yes to anything then you have to quit. All no over here for me.

J fish well said brother

[Flysonsyd]

I would say I'm very addicted to kratom. In the true sense of the word addiction . I am dependent physically and psychologically. However. Like j fish said , the sort of changing of language has placed a negative impact on your life with an addiction . Words just evolve naturally in a culture. People will try to say it's a dependency not an addiction . It's just semantics. I am addicted to caffeine . I am addicted to kratom. Kratom is a strong physical dependency for me where if I stop I'm going to have a hard ass week. Caffeine is less difficult to quit although I will have a hard couple days at work.

Marijuana is certainly addictive. I find that one easy to quit but there's a physical dependency aswell. People in the medical industry don't know what the hell they're talking about in my opinion .

[Jfish030]

addiction i learned one time from a group.

Does it mess up your money, Yes/No.
Does it mess up your relationships yes/No
Does it mess up your work yes/No.

If its yes to anything then you have to quit. All no over here for me.

While I understand, while I was in AA an atleast big millionair shared his cocaine story, him and all his friends would buy bricks so none of those criteria applied. Come to think of it, those wouldn’t apply?

Yeah well i bet he lost some friends or damaged some relationships with his partying along the way and cocaine I have heard makes you a big A hole and makes you feel superior so you treat others bad.

[mivanqua]

addiction i learned one time from a group.

Does it mess up your money, Yes/No.
Does it mess up your relationships yes/No
Does it mess up your work yes/No.

If its yes to anything then you have to quit. All no over here for me.

While I understand, while I was in AA an atleast big millionair shared his cocaine story, him and all his friends would buy bricks so none of those criteria applied. Come to think of it, those wouldn’t apply?

Yeah well i bet he lost some friends or damaged some relationships with his partying along the way and cocaine I have heard makes you a big A hole and makes you feel superior so you treat others bad.

Of you aren't doing cocaine with your girlfriend/wife before you have sex, you are doing it wrong. Isn't THAT what it's made for? "Sexual side effects"
I mean, I always just felt paranoid on the shit or was jonesin' for more if I wasn't "involved" in something or other

[Totomman]

Kratom is definitely addictive. I laugh when people do mental gymnastics to say it’s not. YOU may not be addicted but it’s addictive. Imo, it’s not even borderline like marijuana where you can debate it. Kratom literally gives you physical withdrawal, how can it not be addictive?

[Nelson Baboon]

Kratom is definitely addictive. I laugh when people do mental gymnastics to say it’s not. YOU may be addicted but it’s addictive. Imo, it’s not even borderline like marijuana where you can debate it. Kratom literally gives you physical withdrawal, how can it not be addictive?

yeah. I love it, and i have no intention of ever giving it up. BUT i am tapering now because i do suffer very unpleasant physical symptoms when i go too long without. The psychological part isn't unique to kratom - that can occur with anything that you do repeatedly. But to flatly declare that it isn't physically addictive is just wrong. Obviously it is less so to some people, but i have spoken to and heard from so many people who do suffer symptoms.

I made the mistake of paying no attention to my daily amounts, and it is now an interesting project to walk it all back. But if we are going to discuss this topic, i think we have to be honest about it.

[Sityice]

I take Kratom for antianxiety mood boost effects over taking SSRI's or any other antidepressants. Kratom, in comparison to what our country considers a "normal" antianxiety medicine, is exactly the same in my mind in regards to addictive properties. Kratom works better, has more of a euphoric and noticeable feeling/results, and is natural (I will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS take something natural like a plant over lab made stuff) where as SSRI's don't instantly work, are not even scientifically proven to work, and make me feel emotionless/zombie like.

In regards to addictive properties, if I was to abruptly stop taking an SSRI after prolonged use I would experience brain zaps, flu like symptoms, strange dreams, nausea, upset stomach, and so much more. If people want to scrutinize Kratom for its withdrawal symptoms then SSRI's, the standard and most prescribed antianxiety/antidepressant in the world right now, should also be scrutinized for the same exact thing. You can't just pick and choose what you want to demonize in the public eye because pharmaceutical companies pay millions to the government and media to have their drugs of choice normalized. In fact, Kratom withdrawal is probably WAY less severe than antidepressant withdrawal. Some of those medicines are BRUTAL and if you don't taper down you can probably die from a seizure or something.

And also just like everyone else said, literally anything and practically everything can be "addictive". It's really not fair to pick and choose what "addictions" are acceptable and what are not acceptable. It's ok for someone to drink a bottle of vodka every night for 20 years straight but someone who takes Kratom everyday for 20 years deserves to be in jail in some states and looked at as a druggie? What a crazy world we live in huh... I love the people who have a glass of wine every night with their dinner or a beer everyday after work. Those same people work in government and are probably actively trying to ban Kratom... pure psychopaths if you ask me lol.

[Kelleytoons]

Physical withdrawals? Nonsense - that's ridiculous.

I've stopped at least three or four times cold turkey (after consuming every day three times a day for many months) with no symptoms at all. Indeed, because of the holidays I've actually FORGOTTEN to take my kratom for about three days now (it just occurred to me when writing this). I've just been WAY too busy and too absorbed in other things to even care.

So - stop with the generalizations. By and large most folks have no single problem stopping anytime they want. Is it psychologically addictive? Of course, but so are Lay's Potato chips.

[Nelson Baboon]

Again, folks, you are missing the forest for the trees - if there was ANY evidence (even made up shit) this was addictive it wouldn't be available. End of story.

But - I'm wasting my time here on a pointless discussion, so I won't revisit this thread. Some folks just can't be taught.

that is simply wrong.

[Nelson Baboon]

Physical withdrawals? Nonsense - that's ridiculous.

I've stopped at least three or four times cold turkey (after consuming every day three times a day for many months) with no symptoms at all. Indeed, because of the holidays I've actually FORGOTTEN to take my kratom for about three days now (it just occurred to me when writing this). I've just been WAY too busy and too absorbed in other things to even care.

So - stop with the generalizations. By and large most folks have no single problem stopping anytime they want. Is it psychologically addictive? Of course, but so are Lay's Potato chips.

it comes down to the meanings of words. The fact that, given your intake and habits and biology, you don't have any symptoms doesn't mean that others are as lucky. To say something is addictive doesn't mean that everyone has those symptoms. Enough people do that i think that it is in accord with normal language use to say that it is addictive.

I don't understand why you are hostile to people who, like you, state their own experience.

[Eu4oric906]

Key for me is maintaining control. i watch/limit my alcohol, caffeine, kratom because I want them in my life but have overused to consequence. Try to manage so stopping for a time doesnt bring physical or mental side affect.

There was a time i used to drink too much, pound pots of coffee, now I dont and life feels better. I havent gone as crazy with kratom, partly because when i have over consumed i don't like the feeling I get. Less truly is more for me. I dont do it every day, but most days.

[Totomman]

Kratom is definitely addictive. I laugh when people do mental gymnastics to say it’s not. YOU may be addicted but it’s addictive. Imo, it’s not even borderline like marijuana where you can debate it. Kratom literally gives you physical withdrawal, how can it not be addictive?

yeah. I love it, and i have no intention of ever giving it up. BUT i am tapering now because i do suffer very unpleasant physical symptoms when i go too long without. The psychological part isn't unique to kratom - that can occur with anything that you do repeatedly. But to flatly declare that it isn't physically addictive is just wrong. Obviously it is less so to some people, but i have spoken to and heard from so many people who do suffer symptoms.

I made the mistake of paying no attention to my daily amounts, and it is now an interesting project to walk it all back. But if we are going to discuss this topic, i think we have to be honest about it.

Yea, it baffles me. It’s not some fringe, borderline, maybe. It is. I mean YOU GET WITHDRAWAL. The real funny thing is people saying it’s not addictive in one post then “I’m flying out of country, will tsa dogs find kratom?”. You’re risking getting Brittany grinered over a non addictive substance? Nah

[Totomman]

Physical withdrawals? Nonsense - that's ridiculous.

I've stopped at least three or four times cold turkey (after consuming every day three times a day for many months) with no symptoms at all. Indeed, because of the holidays I've actually FORGOTTEN to take my kratom for about three days now (it just occurred to me when writing this). I've just been WAY too busy and too absorbed in other things to even care.

So - stop with the generalizations. By and large most folks have no single problem stopping anytime they want. Is it psychologically addictive? Of course, but so are Lay's Potato chips.

it comes down to the meanings of words. The fact that, given your intake and habits and biology, you don't have any symptoms doesn't mean that others are as lucky. To say something is addictive doesn't mean that everyone has those symptoms. Enough people do that i think that it is in accord with normal language use to say that it is addictive.

I don't understand why you are hostile to people who, like you, state their own experience.

Right? I had a girlfriend that never bought a pack of cigarettes, just bummed them. Maybe 6 cigarettes per week. Anecdotally I quit smoking in boot camp, no withdrawal. Doesn’t mean cigarettes aren’t addictive. I’m really confused by this post. He’s saying no matter how much you take, withdrawal doesn’t exsist? I’d argue all together there’s a million dollar market to stop kratom withdrawal. I bet stem and vein and the “j” stuff is a million dollar industry

[Kckruse]

I'm going through this as well. Not voluntary but ran out before I ordered more.

My sleep is terrible and every ache in my body is ho ho hoing.

I can't wait until I can get more.

I’m in need of a break right around now, actually. Two days without should do the trick but it’s terribly difficult and takes a lot of willpower. I rely on kratom for so many different purposes so even taking 2 days off is very hard. I get really bad anxiety, headaches and I have trouble sleeping whenever I try to take what everyone refers to as a “t-break”. The reality is anything that gives you pleasure, comfort, etc is addictive after a certain amount of time. The neural pathways in my brain are set to take my kratom 2-3 times per day so any deviation brings a bit of discomfort.

[Nelson Baboon]

Almost ALL of what you describe is what I said earlier - psychological. And, yes, you can have your mind convince your body to get sick, for sure.

But actual physical effects are denied by the science. And, as I say again, a lot of folks don't like that so just believe what you want (but I can promise you this - if there was ANY science that showed this kratom would have been banned quicker than you can imagine. Big Pharma and the FDA were hot as hell to do it but they couldn't even make any up, so they failed. If THEY failed, you can take it to the bank that no one is ever going to prove otherwise).

i think that it's rather hilarious that your 'proof' consists of the fact that if there were any evidence that there was the potential for physical addiction, even on a minor scale, it would be banned. of course, you realize that THIS isn't science.

My take on the reason that the ban failed is that not everyone suffers physical addiction (mostly because of dosage), the symptoms aren't nearly as severe as opioids, etc, and also that so many people are helped by it. the weight of the evidence is positive - it helps far more people than it hurts, and even most who have some physical addiction are helped more than they are hurt.

i find your posts to be insulting and condescending. i think that in general you mistake your own anecdotal experience, and theories about society, for objective fact.

[Nelson Baboon]

Physical withdrawals? Nonsense - that's ridiculous.

I've stopped at least three or four times cold turkey (after consuming every day three times a day for many months) with no symptoms at all. Indeed, because of the holidays I've actually FORGOTTEN to take my kratom for about three days now (it just occurred to me when writing this). I've just been WAY too busy and too absorbed in other things to even care.

So - stop with the generalizations. By and large most folks have no single problem stopping anytime they want. Is it psychologically addictive? Of course, but so are Lay's Potato chips.

yet another example of you mistaking your own anecdotal experience for objective fact. it's not even worth arguing with you - you don't care if i, or others, say yes - we are feeling physical addiction. But the logic works this way - if SOME people experience physical addiction, then the substance is potentially physically addictive. If some people don't, but others do, the substance is physically addictive. your argument here, as in other discussions, seems to be that your experience is objective fact.

[Sityice]

I don't think its really possible to take a decent amount of Kratom everyday for a long period of time and experience zero withdrawal symptoms. I'm prescribed Klonopin for anxiety, which I don't frequently take, but I've been on it for 2 years. Some times I'll take Klonopin everyday for a week straight other times I will use it twice a week and others none that week. I have never experienced any noticeable withdrawals when I don't take Klonopin and that's probably due to my dosing pattern of it. But how insanely crazy would it sound if I was to try and argue that Klonopin is not an addictive substance just because I have personally never experienced withdrawals from it. I highly doubt that some people have some kind of magical power that makes it so their body won't get physically addicted to Kratom, that sounds crazy. I think it's just a dosing thing. It really works like that with any substance. I could take a small amount of heroin everyday, skip some days, and go a week here and there without dosing and I will experience zero withdrawals from that too but that doesn't make heroin not addictive either.

At the end of the day Kratom is a lot more safe, more effective, and more of a natural substance than 99% of what is prescribed or used for mood boost, pain, anxiety, depression, etc.... If people want to judge Kratom for it being addictive then caffeine, food, alcohol, antidepressants, benzos, working out, work, shopping, social media, and so much more also need to be included in these discussions.

And if people want to make articles about other people dying from Kratom while they also had fent in their system or had some kind of pre-existing condition or died from something else while they just happened to also have Kratom in their system then... I don't know what to tell you. Good luck with whatever happens when people move on from this life. I would NOT want to be in your shoes when your soul is looked at for what its done in this realm and you had a position of influence/power through the media and you used it to remove something that is so extremely effective for millions of people just because you had an agenda or your sick and twisted in the head or you wanted more clicks because your greedy and need attention/money.

[Kelleytoons]

I promise I will not make the mistake of visiting this thread again (I thought it was a new one) but for those of you deniers you should at least be aware of two FACTS:

1) Kratom does NOT hit the "addictive" sensor of opioids (there are five sensors and kratom only activates three of them. I can't remember what the other one it doesn't hit does). This is one of the very few facts, from one of the very few studies done on our favorite stuff. We should cherish this fact because of fact #2:

2) If it DID hit that sensor it would be banned. End of story. The powers that be (that want it banned) could use that in a heartbeat.

Now - you can argue all you want with personal anecdotes but that only proves you are psychologically addicted. Not that that's not a nice thing and not that some folks experience all KINDS of "physical" things from that (it's what psychosomatic means). But please do not deny one of the basic facts about our stuff that keeps it legal. Otherwise you are just contributing to the nonsense and WILL get it banned.

(And now I will never visit this thread again, even by accident. I'm old, but I'm not THAT old).

[Sityice]

I highly doubt that legislators are basing the legality of a substance on what kelleytoons and sityice are saying in a thread

To be quiet frank and beans I’m too lazy right now to look into what makes Kratom physically addictive but just because it doesn’t hit one addictive receptor in the brain when their are probably thousands doesn’t mean it’s all good to go and clear from any physical withdrawal symptoms…. And also people don’t decide whether a substance is legal or not based on it being physically addictive.

[Nelson Baboon]

I promise I will not make the mistake of visiting this thread again (I thought it was a new one) but for those of you deniers you should at least be aware of two FACTS:

1) Kratom does NOT hit the "addictive" sensor of opioids (there are five sensors and kratom only activates three of them. I can't remember what the other one it doesn't hit does). This is one of the very few facts, from one of the very few studies done on our favorite stuff. We should cherish this fact because of fact #2:

2) If it DID hit that sensor it would be banned. End of story. The powers that be (that want it banned) could use that in a heartbeat.

Now - you can argue all you want with personal anecdotes but that only proves you are psychologically addicted. Not that that's not a nice thing and not that some folks experience all KINDS of "physical" things from that (it's what psychosomatic means). But please do not deny one of the basic facts about our stuff that keeps it legal. Otherwise you are just contributing to the nonsense and WILL get it banned.

(And now I will never visit this thread again, even by accident. I'm old, but I'm not THAT old).

i see a fellow who mostly concludes from his own experience that it is not physically addictive, and then (obviously falsely) concludes from some paper somewhere that all of the people who experience physical symptoms are deluded. I have experienced psychological addiction. This ain't it. I would welcome your disappearance from this thread.

[Nelson Baboon]

I highly doubt that legislators are basing the legality of a substance on what kelleytoons and sityice are saying in a thread

To be quiet frank and beans I’m too lazy right now to look into what makes Kratom physically addictive but just because it doesn’t hit one addictive receptor in the brain when their are probably thousands doesn’t mean it’s all good to go and clear from any physical withdrawal symptoms…. And also people don’t decide whether a substance is legal or not based on it being physically addictive.

i find his posts on this to be logically defective to the point of being offensive. The offense is in insulting anyone who has experienced these (obviously) physical symptoms.

even in some fictional world where ones mental state caused these physical symptoms, the fact that this happens so commonly, and so severely (though apparently not nearly as severely as other substances) makes it physically addictive within the normal use of language. the first definition i run across in a google search is similar to one that i would have given, "Physical dependence is when the body requires a specific dose of a particular drug, such as a prescription opioid1, in order to prevent withdrawal symptoms." To fulfill this doesn't require some specific mechanism involving specific receptors"

[Babel-17]

"... When they came for Kratom, I said nothing, because I was not a Kratom user. When they came for beer, I said nothing, because I didn't drink beer. When they came for coffee, I said nothing, because I drank tea. And then they laughed at me, threw me to the ground and beat me up, saying, 'You, fool, tea has caffeine in it! And that's not the point anyway, the point is that you have to learn to submit to being told what personal choices you will be allowed to make, and submit to being told who you can listen to, and what you can say.'".

"And by then the country was a fascist dictatorship, with in effect just one political party, serving only to obey the desires and whims of the elites."

[Babel-17]

I find it interesting that the person, now deceased, who was/is considered to possibly be the premier voice for advice in how to stop smoking, Allen Carr, backs up both sides in this debate over addiction.

He takes on nicotine directly, saying that while, yes, it is addictive, it is ultimately only mildly so, and what made stopping smoking so infernally hard for people was the conditioning, the brainwashing, connected with the act of smoking. Nicotine is part of feeling totally dependent on cigarettes, which is importantly different from actually needing cigarettes in order to function.

Yadda yadda yadda, he said that while he saw himself as having defeated that brainwashing for himself, he stopped smoking easily, he wanted to experience the addictive property of nicotine while no longer being psychologically bound to it. So he started smoking for a week or two, then stopped cold turkey. He said that it confirmed what he already knew, the nicotine was only mildly addictive, it was the psychological conditioning that was imparted onto smokers that made it feel like one was going against the Devil himself in wrestling away from it.

I found his book to be an amazingly enjoyable read. I read it over and over for several days and then stopped smoking for good on April 5, 2011.

[Voice_of_Morgulduin]

I find it interesting that the person, now deceased, who was/is considered to possibly be the premier voice for advice in how to stop smoking, Allen Carr, backs up both sides in this debate over addiction.

He takes on nicotine directly, saying that while, yes, it is addictive, it is ultimately only mildly so, and what made stopping smoking so infernally hard for people was the conditioning, the brainwashing, connected with the act of smoking. Nicotine is part of feeling totally dependent on cigarettes, which is importantly different from actually needing cigarettes in order to function.

Yadda yadda yadda, he said that while he saw himself as having defeated that brainwashing for himself, he stopped smoking easily, he wanted to experience the addictive property of nicotine while no longer being psychologically bound to it. So he started smoking for a week or two, then stopped cold turkey. He said that it confirmed what he already knew, the nicotine was only mildly addictive, it was the psychological conditioning that was imparted onto smokers that made it feel like one was going against the Devil himself in wrestling away from it.

I found his book to be an amazingly enjoyable read. I read it over and over for several days and then stopped smoking for good on April 5, 2011.

This just feels like beating around the bush semantically. Psychological conditioning is a major part of addiction.

[Babel-17]

For some drugs the difference between being conditioned to want it, and needing it to function, is yooge. Some nicotine addicts swore that stopping using it was on par with kicking a heroin habit, at least as far at being succesful in resisting the urge to use went. But I didn't say or imply that conditioning wasn't important to addiction. It's just that with nicotine, while it is quickly addictive, the withdrawals are relatively mild. That was Carr's point, that smokers had been conditioned to think that smoking was essential to their well being, and once broken of that brainwashing, beating the addiction to nicotine could be easy.

You wouldn't want your life in the hands of someone going through heroin withdrawal, but someone going through nicotine withdrawal can function well doing critical tasks, albeit they could be snappish and grumpy.

As far as amphetamines go, forget about it, a speed freak's withdrawal can leave them in a fetal ball. People who have had multiple addictions note the irony of finding it simpler to quit using H or speed, than it was/is to quit smoking. Seeing the number of people who smoked outside AA and NA meetings was also food for thought. As Allen Carr noted, outside of hospitals treating cancer patients was one of the places most littered by cigarette butts.

I almost forgot about Valium withdrawal. Sweet Jesus, that can literally kill someone severely addicted.

[Nelson Baboon]

For some drugs the difference between being conditioned to want it, and needing it to function, is yooge. Some nicotine addicts swore that stopping using it was on par with kicking a heroin habit, at least as far at being succesful in resisting the urge to use went. But I didn't say or imply that conditioning wasn't important to addiction. It's just that with nicotine, while it is quickly addictive, the withdrawals are relatively mild. That was Carr's point, that smokers had been conditioned to think that smoking was essential to their well being, and once broken of that brainwashing, beating the addiction to nicotine could be easy.

You wouldn't want your life in the hands of someone going through heroin withdrawal, but someone going through nicotine withdrawal can function well doing critical tasks, albeit they could be snappish and grumpy.

As far as amphetamines go, forget about it, a speed freak's withdrawal can leave them in a fetal ball. People who have had multiple addictions note the irony of finding it simpler to quit using H or speed, than it was/is to quit smoking. Seeing the number of people who smoked outside AA and NA meetings was also food for thought. As Allen Carr noted, outside of hospitals treating cancer patients was one of the places most littered by cigarette butts.

I almost forgot about Valium withdrawal. Sweet Jesus, that can literally kill someone severely addicted.

ok. i thought that the basic question that we were discussing is whether kratom is physically addictive. I'm not sure how the comparison of other substances, and their various withdrawals, answers this basic question. Maybe this wasn't intended to do that. I think that it's pretty simple. Too many people have similar physical symptoms when they stop to argue plausibly that it isn't, or that these symptoms are purely psychological. obviously they are milder than much of the above.

[mivanqua]

Apparently it DOES NOT bind to the mu opioid receptors that are responsible for addiction.

Now let's talk about addiction and dependence and the difference between them. The same people who say that kratom is addictive also think that dependence and addiction are one and the same.

It's like pot when you're a teenager. Do you "need" a bag of pot at all times when you're a teenager or else you're grumpy and can't sleep and life is boring-er? Probably.

BUT!!

Later I became an IV heroin user and realized that I didn't NEED pot so much after all. When given the choice between pot or heroin and only enough money for one, take a wild guess which one I went with EVERY SINGLE TIME?

To be perfectly honest, coffee has WAY worse withdrawal symptoms.

[Nelson Baboon]

Apparently it DOES NOT bind to the mu opioid receptors that are responsible for addiction.

Now let's talk about addiction and dependence and the difference between them. The same people who say that kratom is addictive also think that dependence and addiction are one and the same.

It's like pot when you're a teenager. Do you "need" a bag of pot at all times when you're a teenager or else you're grumpy and can't sleep and life is boring-er? Probably.

BUT!!

Later I became an IV heroin user and realized that I didn't NEED pot so much after all. When given the choice between pot or heroin and only enough money for one, take a wild guess which one I went with EVERY SINGLE TIME?

To be perfectly honest, coffee has WAY worse withdrawal symptoms.

From reading a bit about the difference between addiction and dependence, i think that it may indeed be that kratom causes physical dependence, and not addiction. I'm not expert enough either in the technical differences, or in the range of withdrawal symptoms to come to a conclusion. (the technical difference seems to come down to behavior, and not the severity of physical withdrawal symptoms?)

I'm not sure in what sense you're being "honest" has to do with a comparison between the withdrawal from coffee and that from kratom. If this is just your experience, then you can't conclude what the experience of others might be. I have quit coffee on occasions, and the symptoms were extremely mild, but i would not conclude from that anything about the experience of others.

i think that the core of this debate here is whether any withdrawal symptoms from kratom are physical ones, rather than psychological ones, and i think that it's pretty clear that some people, depending on their own biology and patterns of usage, experience physical withdrawal symptoms.