Is kratom an opioid?

[downsouth]

Don't google it, don't look it up on wikipedia. Do some serious research. Great place to start: https://kratomscience.com

[dantheleafman]

I hereby solemnly swear to never use the term "atypical opioid" ever again. But real talk, you make an excellent point and a vital one. Great post and a distinction that needs to be clearly understood by the community and public at large!

[bluebop]

Thank you for this clarity. When I read today and in past weeks about the devastation and damage done by Fentanyl I am so grateful for Kratom that is effective for my pain. (Own experience, not making medical claim.)

I read today that Fentanyl is being incorporated into almost every street drug, so it is an especially dangerous time to be a street drug user. Fentanyl overdoses and deaths have risen sharply each year. I saw a photo today of a small cluster of white Fentanyl grains on the head of a pencil. The caption said that was enough for an overdose. How careful are your cooks and dealers being?

I want to nod to the great spirit of Kratom, and give my thanks.

[BallzDeep9]

Pretty good summary there. Dr McCurdy in response to the question, says Kratom is "a NON opioid".

Another angle ? Try this one... All opioids are legally "Controlled Substances". ~ Kratom is NOT illegal under U.S. Federal Law and not scheduled...

But the term Controlled Substance ? still might be too complex for IDIOTS who argue about the "Opioid Label" word... it's like a Test question for dummies.

You hit many other valid points. Totally different chemical structure, compared to ANY opioid. BEST just avoid the silly Debate... Kratom is a unique substance, bottom line!

[downsouth]

Pretty good summary there. Dr McCurdy in response to the question, says Kratom is "a NON opioid".

Another angle ? Try this one... All opioids are legally "Controlled Substances". ~ Kratom is NOT illegal under U.S. Federal Law and not scheduled...

But the term Controlled Substance ? still might be too complex for IDIOTS who argue about the "Opioid Label" word... it's like a Test question for dummies.

You hit many other valid points. Totally different chemical structure, compared to ANY opioid. BEST just avoid the silly Debate... Kratom is a unique substance, bottom line!

I definitely agree. The juice isn't worth the squeeze. And, there are many who just don't care to discuss nuance and chemistry--they are anti-kratom no matter what. The misinformation out there, and lumping kratom in with "the opioid epidemic" is the tactic many lawmakers use to try to ban it. The propaganda is astounding. Most of them have no idea what kratom is. They google it in the committee hearings and read the infamous "Mayo Clinic" article that says kratom is ineffective and dangerous and can cause hallucinations and psychosis. SMH. Good suggestion regarding controlled substances. It's like: "Hello, Senator, have you noticed that the DEA has not scheduled kratom, despite several attempts in 2016, and 2018--but that in both cases found that it failed to meet the 8-factor criteria for scheduling?" and "Mr. Senator, what makes you think that this state knows better than the DEA? What justifies going forward with a making kratom schedule 1 when 11 states have the KCPA?"

Like many things, kratom is politicized, demonized, and scapegoated. It's a damn shame. I just want to be like---look, bro, try 2grams of this green maeng da and tell me what you think!

[mivanqua]

But...but ..but...what about the FDA's mystery opioid detector machine that we hadn't seen before and haven't seen since??? The FDA was LYING??? SAY IT AIN'T SO!

[PistolsAtDawn]

I agree in spirit, but factually speaking this is wrong. Anything that binds to opioid receptors - even partial agonists and antagonists - is scientifically classified as an opioid.

[downsouth]

I agree in spirit, but factually speaking this is wrong. Anything that binds to opioid receptors - even partial agonists and antagonists - is scientifically classified as an opioid.

Respectfully disagree. Naloxone (Narcan) and Naltrexone both bond strongly with high affinity to the opioid receptor. Does that make Narcan an opioid? Don't think so. There is disagreement even amongst the scientific community about how to classify kratom as a whole. Remember it has, what 50+ alkaloids, so we are not simply dealing with one chemical structure as in the case of morphine or fentanyl or oxycodone. Hydrocodone is a "pro-drug" that metabolizes into several other things, one of them being hydromorphone, aka dilaudid.

Suboxone has the drugs buprenorphine and naloxone in it. Is Suboxone an opioid? Why is it a schedule 3 instead of a schedule 2?

In the case of kratom as a whole--yes, mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine both touch the MOR, so those alkaloids are technically "partial opioid agonists" which is something very distinct from a "full opioid agonist" - read about the differences. And, on top of that, as the article cited discusses, there are several other alkaloids in kratom that have antagonist effects at DOR and KOR (delta and kappa). Those are essentially putting the brakes on the opioid ativation and the overall strength of activity at the opioid receptors, so the effect is fundamentally different, again. These two differences (in the effects and alkaloid content) of regular kratom leaves, means that simply claiming "kratom is an opioid" is not scientifically accurate because it doesn't take the whole picture into consideration (the binding affinity, the strength of the bind, and the accompanying antagonists in kratom that put the brakes on the overall effects). Further, a halmark of full opioid agonists such as morphine, hydrocodone, oxycodone, and fentanyl, to name a few, carries a high abuse potential because they activate the pleasure centers in the nucleus acumbens and the dopamine receptions, D1, D2, D3. Finally, kratom or rather mitragynine and 7-hydroxymitragynine DO NOT recruit β-Arrestin-2 to the mu-opioid receptor and thus do not cause respiratory depression which is dangerous and chiefly responsible for opioid deaths.

The WHOLE is different than the sum of the parts.

If kratom was a straight up "opioid" in the traditional sense, don't you think the DEA would have been successful in their efforts to make it a Schedule 1? You think that just because a bunch of kratom fans begged them, they decided to stop the scheduling attempts twice-- once in 2016, and again in 2018? Nope. They didn't schedule kratom, because the science shows it doesn't meet criteria for scheduling. No high abuse potential, no respiratory depression, no widespread kratom epidemic, just some very pissed off stakeholders who's bottom line is threatened.

So yeah. It's super important to accurately name and describe kratom, or at least to avoid calling it an "opioid" because anti-kratom lawmakers and other propagandists grab onto that and take it literally and use it to try to ban and schedule our leaf. I know many people want to take a stab at it, but do a deep dive before you jump in the ring, otherwise your post on any forum or social media could end up in a legislator's hands, stapled to his memoranda in support of criminalizing kratom.

I'll try to get some more stuff together, links and the latest research when this whole Louisiana thing is over with next week.

[downsouth]

But...but ..but...what about the FDA's mystery opioid detector machine that we hadn't seen before and haven't seen since??? The FDA was LYING??? SAY IT AIN'T SO!

Hah! The FDA is pretty much synonymous with big pharma. They hate kratom because they cannot regulate or ban it federally. Everyone one should read this 2018 kratom recission letter to the DEA: https://www.scribd.com/document/494746437/

[downsouth]

Check out this article, "Kratom Abuse Potential 2021: An Updated Eight Factor Analysis" here: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10 ... 75073/full

One of the authors, Marilyn Huestis, PhD, testified earlier this year (2023) in the Georgia legislature that "kratom is not an opioid". She has 50 years experience in Toxicology, is a professor, researcher, and worked for NIDA (National Institute of Drug Abuse) for 23 years. She gives a brief but powerful testimony that I believe was instrumental in stopping the ban in Georgia:

Check it out (advance to timestamp 2:31:19): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdYJPLApQBY

Lady had to take half her time just giving all her credentials. I'd love to hear a CREDIBLE scientific refutation of her claims and research. (Hint: there aren't any.)

[PistolsAtDawn]

As I said, I agree in spirit. I wish it weren't classified as an opioid either, but strong opinion doesn't change scientific fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid

Should there be more accurate classifications than this? I think so, but this is how it's classified.

[mivanqua]

Might want to reclassify cheese, chocolate, and coffee, they all stimulate opioid receptors in the exact same way as kratom does
Personally I think it was just to include it into the "opioid epidemic" and it worked. Lots of people are terrified of kratom ( ) and THEY DID THAT! It's really crazy to me. I know you're on the level, I'm just saying. They are scumbags and would do literally ANYTHING to make a buck. Meanwhile, eight year olds should be prescribed sixty mg of LITERAL SPEED every day.

[downsouth]

As I said, I agree in spirit. I wish it weren't classified as an opioid either, but strong opinion doesn't change scientific fact.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opioid

Should there be more accurate classifications than this? I think so, but this is how it's classified.

I'm not sure I follow you, especially with relying on wikipedia for your claim. Did you read my post and the references? Did you watch the video of Dr. Huestis where she clearly states "kratom is not an opioid"?

Riddle me this--if kratom is an "opioid" then why is it legal at the federal level? Why hasn't the DEA banned it?

The categorical distinctions of what constitute "opioids" is both critically important and particularly controversial especially when it comes to kratom. Some say it's splitting hairs, but actually it's pharmacology, specifically pharmacokinetics and biology.

I'm not going to die on that hill, but it sure seems important to be accurate about how we categorize our leaf. There are constant efforts to make it illegal (statutorally criminalize it at the state level), and those people love calling it an "opioid" and lump it in with "the opioid crisis" and fentanyl and "designer drugs", which, I believe you would agree is an unfair characterization.

Not sure if you're playing devil's advocate here or you really believe what you're saying.

[Kelleytoons]

LOL - using "Wiki" to "prove" something is a bit like saying "my uncle George told me" (actually, it's far LESS reliable - at least you KNOW your uncle, I would assume. Wiki is about the most inaccurate source of information there is - can't tell you how many times I've had to stop otherwise reasonable people from relying upon the fallacies there).

Clearly the proof is in the pudding - if kratom was an opioid it would be banned. Pure and simple, end of story. It shares some interesting connections with drugs that ARE opioids, but that's really all it does - you might as well say that aspirin is the same as morphine (they both relieve pain).

[mivanqua]

Yeah that wikipedia article says a whole hell of a lot about nothing. Well, nothing we are talking about anyway. "Science" just can't "admit" that "everything" doesn't fit in their little "boxes." Err on the side of FEAR EVERYONE!

[boureka]

I was once at an interview of Philip Roth who told this story where he found several biographical inaccuracies on his wiki page. He attempted to correct them but was told that he couldn't by Wikipedia. Apparently he wasn't an authorized authority.

[PistolsAtDawn]

The Wikipedia article's references are solid. I provided a general source, but you can read the referenced materials for more. They are medical, pharmacological, etc. That makes them a lot more credible than something one person said.

What is being argued here is, at the core, that kratom shouldn't be treated like it's an opiate. And to that I agree. However, it is not up for debate whether or not it fits the definition of opioid. It does. This is how science classifies it. Naltrexone, naloxone... those are also opioids even though they're given to block other opioids from working.

I'm not going to respond point by point to an emotional argument. I use kratom too. Do you think I want anything different for it than the rest of us? Of course not.

But since kratom interacts with opioid receptors, that makes it an opioid. That's the answer to the question, "Is kratom an opioid." Yes, it is.

Perhaps the better topic of discussion would be: should we legislate around such a broad and nearly meaningless category of chemicals? I would certainly say no.

Similarly, the scientific community no longer classifies Pluto as a planet. To most people, that's a meaningless distinction. Kratom being considered an opioid is pretty meaningless, but it is what it is.

[boureka]

The Wikipedia article's references are solid. I provided a general source, but you can read the referenced materials for more. They are medical, pharmacological, etc. That makes them a lot more credible than something one person said.

What is being argued here is, at the core, that kratom shouldn't be treated like it's an opiate. And to that I agree. However, it is not up for debate whether or not it fits the definition of opioid. It does. This is how science classifies it. Naltrexone, naloxone... those are also opioids even though they're given to block other opioids from working.

I'm not going to respond point by point to an emotional argument. I use kratom too. Do you think I want anything different for it than the rest of us? Of course not.

But since kratom interacts with opioid receptors, that makes it an opioid. That's the answer to the question, "Is kratom an opioid." Yes, it is.

Perhaps the better topic of discussion would be: should we legislate around such a broad and nearly meaningless category of chemicals? I would certainly say no.

Good point.

[Rambo]

The Wikipedia article's references are solid. I provided a general source, but you can read the referenced materials for more. They are medical, pharmacological, etc. That makes them a lot more credible than something one person said.

What is being argued here is, at the core, that kratom shouldn't be treated like it's an opiate. And to that I agree. However, it is not up for debate whether or not it fits the definition of opioid. It does. This is how science classifies it. Naltrexone, naloxone... those are also opioids even though they're given to block other opioids from working.

I'm not going to respond point by point to an emotional argument. I use kratom too. Do you think I want anything different for it than the rest of us? Of course not.

But since kratom interacts with opioid receptors, that makes it an opioid. That's the answer to the question, "Is kratom an opioid." Yes, it is.

Perhaps the better topic of discussion would be: should we legislate around such a broad and nearly meaningless category of chemicals? I would certainly say no.

Similarly, the scientific community no longer classifies Pluto as a planet. To most people, that's a meaningless distinction. Kratom being considered an opioid is pretty meaningless, but it is what it is.

From my layman’s perspective, I think the main point of contention is that Kratom only acts as a partial agonist on the mu receptor only (& antagonist on the other receptors). Unlike any opioid AFAIK. There is a difference, and all the better if it prevents Kratom from being scheduled.

[mivanqua]

No one really can explain it's mechanism, only the part where mit turns into 7OHM in the liver. Before and after that though, TOTAL MYSTERY. How could anyone begin to classify that? It needs a new classification.
Also, there are lots of different opioid receptors and it's action THERE isn't widely known either. I think it's more a GUESS that it's an opioid.
I think you'd be terrified to know how often science and medicine are based mostly on guesses. And that's a good thing, but not nearly enough is understood about kratom to classify it as anything. Sure, just so everyone can be scared of it, let's just call it an opioid for now.
But there's a lot more to kratom than that. Who even knows if the Mit or 7OHM are even the main action of kratom?

I think that's kinda the point.

[BallzDeep9]

Naloxone (Narcan) and Naltrexone both bond strongly with high affinity to the opioid receptor. Does that make Narcan an opioid? Don't think so. There is disagreement even amongst the scientific community about how to classify kratom as a whole. Remember it has, what 50+ alkaloids, so we are not simply dealing with one chemical structure as in the case of morphine or fentanyl or oxycodone ....

yes also, as mivanqua points out, Chocolate contains Epicatechins which bind to opioid receptors -- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20833967/

So there goes the "pseudo science" argument for the opioid LABEL - it's just a word, a noun, that should not really apply to Kratom... Finally... Real scientists, Pharmacologists who study Kratom, do NOT agree with the Opioid Label either. So if science is your argument, why then disagree with the scientists ??

Words can have multiple meanings. In the case of "opioid" it's NOW seen as very negative socially and "opioid crisis" is political too... Anyone who supports kratom, should not allow this derogatory hateful term be thrown around - The Kratom Industry sadly has some very un-friendly and conflicting stuff - The AKA, goes around suggesting that: "Kratom could be spiked with Fentanyl" etc. (so please BUY your kratom from only AKA Approved vendors!) etc. A lot of negativity that seems to follow this plant... unfairly

[downsouth]

Naloxone (Narcan) and Naltrexone both bond strongly with high affinity to the opioid receptor. Does that make Narcan an opioid? Don't think so. There is disagreement even amongst the scientific community about how to classify kratom as a whole. Remember it has, what 50+ alkaloids, so we are not simply dealing with one chemical structure as in the case of morphine or fentanyl or oxycodone ....

yes also, as mivanqua points out, Chocolate contains Epicatechins which bind to opioid receptors -- https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20833967/

So there goes the "pseudo science" argument for the opioid LABEL - it's just a word, a noun, that should not really apply to Kratom... Finally... Real scientists, Pharmacologists who study Kratom, do NOT agree with the Opioid Label either. So if science is your argument, why then disagree with the scientists ??

Words can have multiple meanings. In the case of "opioid" it's NOW seen as very negative socially and "opioid crisis" is political too... Anyone who supports kratom, should not allow this derogatory hateful term be thrown around - The Kratom Industry sadly has some very un-friendly and conflicting stuff - The AKA, goes around suggesting that: "Kratom could be spiked with Fentanyl" etc. (so please BUY your kratom from only AKA Approved vendors!) etc. A lot of negativity that seems to follow this plant... unfairly

Excellent points here. One of the most ominous consequences of the "ambiguity" of classification is how it fuels the argument to ban it, or make it a Schedule 1 substance, both at the state level and potentially at the federal level. We've managed to avert a Louisiana ban this year, and a federal DEA ban, what, twice -- 2016 and 2018. But the latest ignorant arguments by lawmakers involve things like "it's a dangerous opioid" and "gas station heroin" etc, so it's fodder for their bans. Also, even if it can be shown as was mentioned in this thread that "we really don't know" it's full classification or mechanism of action...well then, according to them "let's ban it until we do!" This is definitely scary for kratom users. I agree the AKA has some very self-directed interests particularly in it's largest contributors. I am wondering if it would be useful to create a separate advocacy group--not in conflict with the AKA---but that truly focuses on the latest unbiased science that can guide and inform (or reform) kratom legislation. Kratom users claiming "oh, yeah, for sure it's an opioid" sure doesn't help things, and I don't understand why anyone would say such a thing. Perhaps they do not understand the gravity and potential consequences of their words.

[mivanqua]

I always loved "gas station heroin."

That's called "creative license "

[boureka]

Perhaps the definition of, or even better, the conception of what "opioid" implies, needs to change. Many things stimulate opioid receptors that are not deemed dangerous. No one is legislating chocolate. Not yet.

[Nelson Baboon]

Might want to reclassify cheese, chocolate, and coffee, they all stimulate opioid receptors in the exact same way as kratom does
Personally I think it was just to include it into the "opioid epidemic" and it worked. Lots of people are terrified of kratom ( ) and THEY DID THAT! It's really crazy to me. I know you're on the level, I'm just saying. They are scumbags and would do literally ANYTHING to make a buck. Meanwhile, eight year olds should be prescribed sixty mg of LITERAL SPEED every day.

maybe they should ban cheese and chocolate. You can't be too careful.

[Nelson Baboon]

The Wikipedia article's references are solid. I provided a general source, but you can read the referenced materials for more. They are medical, pharmacological, etc. That makes them a lot more credible than something one person said.

What is being argued here is, at the core, that kratom shouldn't be treated like it's an opiate. And to that I agree. However, it is not up for debate whether or not it fits the definition of opioid. It does. This is how science classifies it. Naltrexone, naloxone... those are also opioids even though they're given to block other opioids from working.

I'm not going to respond point by point to an emotional argument. I use kratom too. Do you think I want anything different for it than the rest of us? Of course not.

But since kratom interacts with opioid receptors, that makes it an opioid. That's the answer to the question, "Is kratom an opioid." Yes, it is.

Perhaps the better topic of discussion would be: should we legislate around such a broad and nearly meaningless category of chemicals? I would certainly say no.

Similarly, the scientific community no longer classifies Pluto as a planet. To most people, that's a meaningless distinction. Kratom being considered an opioid is pretty meaningless, but it is what it is.

Definitions describe actual usage. Given that notion of definition, words can have many meanings, and not all of the subtleties are covered by dictionaries. I guess that classification is not exactly the same...

I am very far from a scientist, but i've heard people (an example of such a knowledgeable person was give a bit back) claim that kratom isn't really an opioid. I just picked this up from a site related to Johns Hopkins: "Opioids are a class of drugs that derive from, or mimic, natural substances found in the opium poppy plant". Before i started getting into kratom this was the definition that was familiar to me. I suspect that in the real world, how one classifies kratom is more important to the politics of it - a politician is more likely, I guess, to favor banning if someone tells them that they should because it's an opioid.

Again - not being a scientist - where does this official classification reside? Is there one central source? Or is it possible that different sources have different classifications? again - not a scientist by any means, but while humorous, it does seem like a great point that was made earlier. If indeed chocolate binds to opioid receptors, why isn't it classified as an opioid. there MUST then be more factors involved - the degree, for instance, and other interactions, etc. I'm gleaning that some very knowledgeable people do NOT agree that it should be considered an opioid. sorry for the rant. thinking out loud. it is an interesting subject.

it's an interesting issue. It seems to me like the classification

[mivanqua]

Well, you see...

And I can't find any articles on the machine (and o what a machine it was) that they fed some kratom into this machine and it did some "test" and this "test" and declared it "opioid." Sounds fucking ridiculous, right? Again, articles on this machine are impossible to find now anywhere. It's just a good thing they didn't feed it a nice aged cheddar. BAN CHEESE! But they would have a machine that would keep saying "inconclusive results. Need more cheese!"

Bureaucrat = fuckhead. They don't mind lying. All of those punk bands were right in the 80s and they did their best to tell us. Find me one Dead Kennedys song that doesn't ring just as true today. Don't bother even looking for one as it doesn't exist.

Since they have essentially stopped prescribing opioids (the real ones,) I don't think it's about money. I think they really do want us to suffer. I'm completely open to other theories, but from what I've seen of other issues and personally with "judicial process," suffering is the only thing that comes out of it. For EVERYONE.

If you were to take an age poll of this site, which I think is a good place to find the median age of users as a whole, I think you'd find the median age was around 45-50. It's not about getting high. That's why nobody who doesn't need it really likes it. It's not really "recreational" and all I've literally EVER gotten out of it was a nice sense of well-being...like everything is going to be alright. Why would they try to illegalize THAT? The other side of the coin though, if I want to go buy a handle of vodka and drink it and then drive into a school, all I have to do is walk down the street. No drug should be illegal UNLESS they want to do it ACROSS THE BOARD and that includes alcohol AND cigarettes.

I read a while ago in a book called "Trips" (it explains how all drugs work in your brain and illustrated by R. Crumb. It's a COOL book if you ever come across it. ) there is an interview a DEA agent in the back and he says "we can't outlaw alcohol or cigarettes for 'historical reasons.'" I mean, what the fuck does that even mean, first of all? Second, the way I take it personally is that they tried it with alcohol and way more people were dying from the illegality (AKA lack of oversight/quality control) than alcohol itself. If this IS what he meant, shouldn't they feel that way about ALL drugs? The reason people are dying left and right is because people are doing something to get high that contains more than a grain of salt of fentanyl in their pill/bag. How TF does one even quality control that without a spectrometer?

I digress....