Double M Herbals | Kratom Forum

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How long have you been growing your trees?

Judging from the reddit posts the trees look fairly young, the numbers you're claiming would be very impressive for any Indonesian farm let alone one grown the in the states. So where is the product? lab results?...I see nothing.

anonk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:53 pm Judging from the reddit posts the trees look fairly young, the numbers you're claiming would be very impressive for any Indonesian farm let alone one grown the in the states. So where is the product? lab results?...I see nothing.

I emailed them to get the portal into the actual website. Will update when I hear something.

UPDATE :

Received this e-mail. Why advertise when you don't have a product to sell?

Thus :

We're not selling yet but later this will we will be, our product will be superior to all kratom currently being sold with natural mitragynine levels between 2.5-3%.

Whaaa?

mivanqua wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 4:23 pm

anonk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:53 pm Judging from the reddit posts the trees look fairly young, the numbers you're claiming would be very impressive for any Indonesian farm let alone one grown the in the states. So where is the product? lab results?...I see nothing.

I emailed them to get the portal into the actual website. Will update when I hear something.

UPDATE :

Received this e-mail. Why advertise when you don't have a product to sell?

Thus :

We're not selling yet but later this will we will be, our product will be superior to all kratom currently being sold with natural mitragynine levels between 2.5-3%.

Whaaa?

True. Gotta question everything these days, especially these pop up vendors and farmers. Those are quite big numbers to boast without any analysis to back it up. I've never seen mit % higher than 2% honestly

Yeah, it will remain to be seen how potent or good their product will be IF they get around to producing it.

However, that said, I think it's a good sign that kratom is being tested here in Florida as a cash crop. Even if it turns out to be, say, low-mit and/or low potency, I might buy some to support their efforts. If we could make kratom profitable here (say, though taxes and such) then the politcos in Florida will be a lot less likely to ban. I know the University of Florida (located further north than these folks) is experimenting with finding out if kratom could be such a viable crop. All of these sorts of things are good for us, even for folks not living in the U.S. I won't live long enough to see, but it would be FANTASTIC if another area of the world could produce viable kratom.

Yeah, I agree that USA produced kratom is a good thing for multiple reasons. With how difficult it is to get good small batch kratom imported - and the cost of doing so - having local options would be great!

The tax implications is a great point, KT. I believe that's the driving factor in marijuana legalization here. States love that juicy sin tax money.

That said, dubious claims without proof isn't a great start.

I'm curious because I know The Trees of Life has a kratom farm in the U.S. and was just wondering for how long. And what other farms may be out there.

Thanks for your responses we have been growing a test crop for over a decade now and collaborated with several Universities and researchers along the way to perfect all aspects of kratom farming within the US, our mother trees are around 15 years old around now and mmm 40+ feet tall, and yes the University of Florida also has a test crop in Apopka FL that's about all I can say for privacy reasons, regarding our farm itself our 300 acres of trees are now close to 1.5 years old and producing Alkloids in the mid to high 2% range consistently with labs currently posted on reddit and we will also share on the website, our genetic line produces significant alkaloids at 8 months of age, at 3 months of age our lab testing have shown low 1% mitra levels and only increases from there, we now sit at a consistent level in the mid to high 2% mitra range.
Now let's be honest here the reason you no longer see extremly potent kratom being imported like was being seen 10+ years ago is primarily due to overharvesting, majority of plantation in indo pick anything and everything they can as quickly as they can because of the overwhelming demand around the world, I have seen Indonesia during my travels harvesting leaf as young as 1 week old, maturity is key along with other farming practices which indo is beginning to lose sight in due to overwhelming demand they receive and as the years go by you will see a further decline in quality, let's be honest on average these days your lucky to see anything above 1.5% with the average numbers sitting between 1.1-1.5%, now our farm will focus strictly on quality control and we will never stray from regardless of demand this will not make us stray from correct kratom agricultural farming practices.

Lokey wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:15 pm I'm curious because I know The Trees of Life has a kratom farm in the U.S. and was just wondering for how long. And what other farms may be out there.

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USA grown kratom join us for regular updates and photos by joining r/kratomtree on reddit

xymoriintus wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 4:36 pm

mivanqua wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 4:23 pm

anonk wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 3:53 pm Judging from the reddit posts the trees look fairly young, the numbers you're claiming would be very impressive for any Indonesian farm let alone one grown the in the states. So where is the product? lab results?...I see nothing.

I emailed them to get the portal into the actual website. Will update when I hear something.

UPDATE :

Received this e-mail. Why advertise when you don't have a product to sell?

Thus :

We're not selling yet but later this will we will be, our product will be superior to all kratom currently being sold with natural mitragynine levels between 2.5-3%.

Whaaa?

True. Gotta question everything these days, especially these pop up vendors and farmers. Those are quite big numbers to boast without any analysis to back it up. I've never seen mit % higher than 2% honestly

Herb Research advertised “High Queen of Malay” at 2.38%, and said it was the highest they’d ever come across.

I haven’t seen labs, but they have a pretty sturdy reputation.

I'm confident herb research tested product at 2.3%, there's solid product in Thailand right now also with labs coming back at 3% and above, the key to potency is several factors one the leaves need ample time to mature before harvest, much of the plantation owners don't provide the necessary grow time due to high demand and money, the next factor is fertilization I've personally seen these folks plopping random amounts of urea granules around their trees with massive run off, the next is drying and processing which, but mainly if they correct the overharvesting issue bring it back to 2009 you will see the mitragynine levels shoot up to nearly double the average amount we are seeing these days.

herbalhippie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:36 am

Lokey wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:15 pm I'm curious because I know The Trees of Life has a kratom farm in the U.S. and was just wondering for how long. And what other farms may be out there.

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Thank you Hippie!

I can't fathom how any harvester could use one week old leaves, that's like abusing a child. A one week old tree's leaves are very fragile, small, thin and would be harmful not to mention there's very very few leaves on a one week old tree. It would be like mass murder to use such young trees

Wondering where the 300 acres are, I assumed Miami but there's hardly any undeveloped space there between the Everglades and populated areas.

Lokey wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 12:47 pm

herbalhippie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:36 am

Lokey wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:15 pm I'm curious because I know The Trees of Life has a kratom farm in the U.S. and was just wondering for how long. And what other farms may be out there.

This comment was reported as "advertisement for another company" which it is not. Report closed.

Thank you Hippie!

I can't fathom how any harvester could use one week old leaves, that's like abusing a child. A one week old tree's leaves are very fragile, small, thin and would be harmful not to mention there's very very few leaves on a one week old tree. It would be like mass murder to use such young trees

Wondering where the 300 acres are, I assumed Miami but there's hardly any undeveloped space there between the Everglades and populated areas.

Maybe 4 years ago one of the members was growing a couple trees and sent me some fresh leaves. His trees were a few years old I think. My lips went kind of numb after
chewing one, but that was about it. No other real effects.

I had two trees from My Trees of Life I recently gave away because they were getting too big and had nowhere to plant them and I saved a few leaves. I had them for a couple years and I'm hoping the guy I gave them to planted them, I'm fearing for their safety! They were little babies in Styrofoam cups when I got them and within two years they'd been repotted several times into huge pots. I live in South Florida and kept them on my open patio. They thrived with very little care even though something enjoyed eating the leaves. I emailed MTOL and asked them how long they've been growing and about their farm.

Update, they don't have a farm, they do greenhouse cultivation for 8 years now. He said he's heard from at least a couple different people who say they're growing in Hawaii

I looked pretty hard, probably spent more time then a typical kratom enthusiasts spends online looking at kratom stuff. I cant find your labs, that are so crucial to your claims of extremely high mit. I just have my doubts because doesn't Florida get cold enough every few years to wipe out your entire farm or at the least drop the leaves?

Depends on where in Florida - in the south, no, Florida never gets too cold. Here in central Florida we do have, every 10 years or so, a period of time when we experience freezing temps. It's sometimes longer - the last "big freeze" was in the 70's. When it happens it kills off the orange groves (which is why Walt was able to buy land cheap here).

But far south, like Miami? It did get into the 40's a few years ago, and prior to that it was over a decade before it got that cold. But the ground never freezes and orange groves are just fine (so I would assume kratom would be as well - even Thailand experiences those kinds of lows at times). However, I guess only the folks growing this stuff there would know for sure (since scientists at the University are studying this I would assume they would realize right away either it was viable or not, and they are spending years on the research. If it were that apparent it wouldn't take a team of scientists to know :>).

I'm just lol at the thought that in a few years we'll hear that gator manure is responsible for the potency of some select plantations in Florida, and then after that we learn those gators were eating Kratom poachers.

"SoFlo Green is people!"

Maybe "Kratom Gator" will be a new horror movie then, about a gator taking too much and going berserk (except the one good thing about kratom we all know is that it WON'T do things like this. If anything the gator will just be sunning himself, chilling out, and feeling like he's king of the world :>).

herbalhippie wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:36 am

Lokey wrote: ↑Sun Feb 26, 2023 10:15 pm I'm curious because I know The Trees of Life has a kratom farm in the U.S. and was just wondering for how long. And what other farms may be out there.

This comment was reported as "advertisement for another company" which it is not. Report closed.

People really need to stop being so insecure

Jfish030 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:55 pm I looked pretty hard, probably spent more time then a typical kratom enthusiasts spends online looking at kratom stuff. I cant find your labs, that are so crucial to your claims of extremely high mit. I just have my doubts because doesn't Florida get cold enough every few years to wipe out your entire farm or at the least drop the leaves?

Exactly, anyone online can make any claim and produce bogus documents. I would likely buy some just as a novelty, but I doubt American grown kratom will ever be as popular as Indo kratom. But who knows, it all remains to be seen.

xymoriintus wrote: ↑Sat Mar 04, 2023 8:28 am

Jfish030 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:55 pm I looked pretty hard, probably spent more time then a typical kratom enthusiasts spends online looking at kratom stuff. I cant find your labs, that are so crucial to your claims of extremely high mit. I just have my doubts because doesn't Florida get cold enough every few years to wipe out your entire farm or at the least drop the leaves?

Exactly, anyone online can make any claim and produce bogus documents. I would likely buy some just as a novelty, but I doubt American grown kratom will ever be as popular as Indo kratom. But who knows, it all remains to be seen.

I did just that! I made a novelty purchase a little while back.

Here is the post. It is the same company, found him on Reddit and gave it a shot, worked out just fine...viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9011

Free bump and another 0.02.

Kratom is being grow in the USA, but the price per kilo will easily be $200 or more per kilo, for a product that might be 10-20% better. Which its kratom you just take a little more if its a little weaker. Yes theres kratom where thats not the case but unless hes got a decade of cloning and doing testing to produce the best gene trees that are super amped up in the total akaloids. It will just be regular kratom that is a little better. The labor market in the usa is expensive. In indonesia its $1-3 a day, that might be 8-10 hours work. In the usa its like $15 an hour and you need alot of hours to harvest kratom from trees by hand and then alot of time washing the leaves then alot of time drying. Then crushing them then desteming and de veing. Alll that is done by hand. You wont get affordable kratom inside the usa. It will quickly look like a expensive habit buying 200-400 kilos.

That's no no.

So wild how it would all work out. Kratom a few states away would be more expensive than kratom from across the planet. Goes against all logic. Like literally everything else. Usually there is no reason for things, but if there is, it doesn't make any sense. America 2023.

Jfish030 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:55 pm I looked pretty hard, probably spent more time then a typical kratom enthusiasts spends online looking at kratom stuff. I cant find your labs, that are so crucial to your claims of extremely high mit. I just have my doubts because doesn't Florida get cold enough every few years to wipe out your entire farm or at the least drop the leaves ?

Yes to your observations. Let me expand on this... He's been around on Reddit for 5+ years. Over all this time, there's not been ANY legit, quality, Independent testing to verify "claims" made ? Obviously folks in Florida have $ invested, acreage, and hard work... Seems to me, IF the product was any good, at least competing with Import stuff... more Buyers would notice.

People generally don't "Review" or say anything, when a product's not good... Nobody wants to bash the grower here. We naturally wanna support the concept. I've lived in South Florida & would seem ideal conditions... BUT either it's economically not feasible... Or the domestic product just isn't as strong ? Not yet anyway ? Due to soil conditions or whatever ?

Yeah im not doubting he has a bad A farm. Its probably really awesome and could potentially be made into a nice airbnb or vacation location. Going touring in a kratom forest sounds pretty fun and would be worth a trip. Harvest your own leafs, pick and pay. That would be fun too.

Don't trees need to be, like, 10 years old at least to produce a usable product? Or older?

I think Gumbyke said that kratom trees don’t start producing significant levels of mitra or 7ohm until they’re at least three years old.

herbalhippie wrote: ↑Thu Mar 16, 2023 2:26 pm Don't trees need to be, like, 10 years old at least to produce a usable product? Or older?

Vast majority of kratom harvested an imported into the USA is from trees 3-6 years old. Wild non plantation grown trees grow really tall. The harvesters get paid by quantity not quality, because there's no way to judge quality in the field.

If you get paid by the amount of leaves you bring to the selling center. Which leaves you grabbing? The plantations that have been planted and are being harvested are all younger then 10 years for sure. They top the trees so they grow more bushy less tall treey.


The videos and pictures that used to be shared years ago of them cutting down the branches, or the entire trees to harvest the old growth leaves. That doesnt happen much anymore, because the trees are all gone and or you can harvest ALOT more from ground level with younger trees.

Our youngest trees are showing alkaloid levels in the upper 2% range just over a year old and have increased with age and have capped at around 3.1% on trees over 3.5 years old, some researchers we are talking to in Thailand have theories on this and how the MiT levels can actually reach as high as the 4% range, which has yet to be seen on our end.

Miamibotany1 wrote: ↑Wed May 31, 2023 11:11 pm Our youngest trees are showing alkaloid levels in the upper 2% range just over a year old and have increased with age and have capped at around 3.1% on trees over 3.5 years old, some researchers we are talking to in Thailand have theories on this and how the MiT levels can actually reach as high as the 4% range, which has yet to be seen on our end.

Now we know you're being disengenuous, SOMEONE would have found something above 2.2 in Indonesia I'm sure, and that's the cap thus far as far as I'm aware. Four percent is impossible, and probably you'll have to fight lopsided alkaloids for days. Don't try to convince me 4% mit is smooth sailing because I don't believe it.

Yeah I'm not sure exactly that's just what researchers are claiming in Thailand and a researcher in Indo Maluku islands, now in regards to 2 2% we have crushed that number ourselves on our own American grown farm, high as 3.1% mit but we're unable to surpass that number, indo is also able to crush that number as well but due to overwhelming demand the product you are seeing these days are a product of overharvesting and incorrect AG procedures on the plantations from where 90% of lratom is now harvested.
Due to overwhelming demand harvesters will pick and process anything and everything including young premature leaves just to fill demand and this is why you've seen a steady decrease in potency over the course of 10 years and will likely see that number drop even further as demand increases and will settle likely around 1% consistently.
Our goal on our US grown kratom farm is to produce a consistent product that's classified as a premium product at or above 2.5% mit and to do this proper Agriculture procedures must be taken, such as harvesting and when to harvest full mature leaves, controlled growing conditions even down to the nutrient profile and microbes within the soil, watering protocols etc. All key to creating and maintaining a premium grade product, not much different than say cannabis.

Miamibotany1 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 3:27 pm Yeah I'm not sure exactly that's just what researchers are claiming in Thailand and a researcher in Indo Maluku islands, now in regards to 2 2% we have crushed that number ourselves on our own American grown farm, high as 3.1% mit but we're unable to surpass that number, indo is also able to crush that number as well but due to overwhelming demand the product you are seeing these days are a product of overharvesting and incorrect AG procedures on the plantations from where 90% of lratom is now harvested.
Due to overwhelming demand harvesters will pick and process anything and everything including young premature leaves just to fill demand and this is why you've seen a steady decrease in potency over the course of 10 years and will likely see that number drop even further as demand increases and will settle likely around 1% consistently.
Our goal on our US grown kratom farm is to produce a consistent product that's classified as a premium product at or above 2.5% mit and to do this proper Agriculture procedures must be taken, such as harvesting and when to harvest full mature leaves, controlled growing conditions even down to the nutrient profile and microbes within the soil, watering protocols etc. All key to creating and maintaining a premium grade product, not much different than say cannabis.

I've seen your status pop up every once in awhile for a long time now. I remember a long while back you were even offering samples via facebook but that never happened. Has anything changed?

Miamibotany1 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:18 am let's be honest on average these days your lucky to see anything above 1.5% with the average numbers sitting between 1.1-1.5%, now our farm will focus strictly on quality control and we will never stray from regardless of demand this will not make us stray from correct kratom agricultural farming practices.

This has not been my experience. Where are you getting these numbers? Because I have probably 10-15 kilos on hand that I've bought over the last two years, and something like 85% of it is over 1.5% Mit. The ones below 1.5% are mostly fermented reds too. This is fresh Kratom too, all cured within the last 3 years.

Exactly what I had just said 1.1-1 5% is around the average coming out of SE Asia, but a decade ago those numbers were significantly higher, this decrease in alkaloids is in part due to overharvesting due to overwhelming demand, most product is primarily sourced from plantations these days and what is being harvested wild is a very small amount, unfortunately alot of wild harvested involves completely chopping 80 year old trees down etc. Sad to see but that's really the fact of the matter, so now plantations begin popping up and yet again another terrible issue arises removal of ancient forest to make way for kratom plantations, improper fertigation techniques creating massive fertilizer runoff into rivers and streams etc

Voice_of_Morgulduin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:49 pm

Miamibotany1 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:18 am let's be honest on average these days your lucky to see anything above 1.5% with the average numbers sitting between 1.1-1.5%, now our farm will focus strictly on quality control and we will never stray from regardless of demand this will not make us stray from correct kratom agricultural farming practices.

This has not been my experience. Where are you getting these numbers? Because I have probably 10-15 kilos on hand that I've bought over the last two years, and something like 85% of it is over 1.5% Mit. The ones below 1.5% are mostly fermented reds too. This is fresh Kratom too, all cured within the last 3 years.

Contact your supplier and say your going to spend $175 for mit testing and if it comes back much lower then reported hes/she is paying. Lol

Almost all kratom is 1.1-1.6%. Reds are typically 1.0% or less.

The part about wild harvest is probably true, the mit levels were probably 1.6-2.4% back in the day, they chopped all the trees down. The only wild harvest able trees are so far out from villages/living people that its not worth it to harvest when you will get paid the same amount as picking from the plantations in and around villages. Theres no way for anyone in indonesia to justify paying more for leaves just because someone tells them they had to work harder for it.

Jfish030 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:57 pm

Voice_of_Morgulduin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:49 pm

Miamibotany1 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 9:18 am let's be honest on average these days your lucky to see anything above 1.5% with the average numbers sitting between 1.1-1.5%, now our farm will focus strictly on quality control and we will never stray from regardless of demand this will not make us stray from correct kratom agricultural farming practices.

This has not been my experience. Where are you getting these numbers? Because I have probably 10-15 kilos on hand that I've bought over the last two years, and something like 85% of it is over 1.5% Mit. The ones below 1.5% are mostly fermented reds too. This is fresh Kratom too, all cured within the last 3 years.

Contact your supplier and say your going to spend $175 for mit testing and if it comes back much lower then reported hes/she is paying. Lol

Almost all kratom is 1.1-1.6%. Reds are typically 1.0% or less.

A lot, sure, especially during wet season. Almost all? I guess it depends what your definition of almost all is. Pretty much all the vendors on the vetted vendor list here bring in kratom testing well above that range on the regular. I guess you can distrust their results but I really doubt they're collectively falsifying paperwork from reputable labs.

Voice_of_Morgulduin wrote: ↑Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:05 pm

Jfish030 wrote: ↑Wed Jun 07, 2023 1:57 pm

Voice_of_Morgulduin wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 4:49 pm

This has not been my experience. Where are you getting these numbers? Because I have probably 10-15 kilos on hand that I've bought over the last two years, and something like 85% of it is over 1.5% Mit. The ones below 1.5% are mostly fermented reds too. This is fresh Kratom too, all cured within the last 3 years.

Contact your supplier and say your going to spend $175 for mit testing and if it comes back much lower then reported hes/she is paying. Lol

Almost all kratom is 1.1-1.6%. Reds are typically 1.0% or less.

A lot, sure, especially during wet season. Almost all? I guess it depends what your definition of almost all is. Pretty much all the vendors on the vetted vendor list here bring in kratom testing well above that range on the regular. I guess you can distrust their results but I really doubt they're collectively falsifying paperwork from reputable labs.

I just wasted ALOT of time and went through that list and saw exactly what i was saying. 1.2-1.6% is a LARGE majority of all mit levels. You can find some stuff in the 1.8% range here or there but its like 1 out of 40 strains. 1.4-1.6% is the range for green kratom.